"Futuristc" synth GENESIS 1

[forsh]

Looks deadly.

As I said before, just like ordering an ATX case for a custom PC builds, we need something like that for Keyboards.

Sharp.

the future is right that

custom keyboard cases with room for itx motherboard etc

this could either take off realy good, or have 10 people interested!

personally I love the idea of a massive vst thats standalone. with knobs and sliders and a screen and more knobs and sliders and patch cables and knobs and sliders and stuff

[Bachus]

a touchscreen interface can work miracles when it comes to non real time content creation... and access to edditors and stuff....

I'm currently trying out Chrutil's AL-1 Windows editor on the 23" screen - It works very well, not perfectly, but easier and more enjoyable than shoving a mouse around.

As I said before, just like ordering an ATX case for a custom PC builds, we need something like that for Keyboards.

+1.

I suppose we're really thinking of a more affordable Open Labs Neko type system, maybe it was a tad too ahead of it's time. A less expensive version would probably do well now - I'd certainly buy one.

I threw mine together in a few days, just to see what it would be like. I'd like to make something far more elegant, but the chassis is too expensive to have fabricated. I could reduce the bulk by using the guts of a laptop and remove the PCBs from the ADAT interface enclosures. Doepfer have a nice DIY controller interface board which could be integrated - maybe a project for next year, but at the moment I'm busy with another DIY synth build

i dont think an open labs Neko system will sell big time...

there was another reason it didnt sell as well as it could..

there was no content creation...



When you have a look at the Kronos, it comes with a huge amount of Karma stuff specifically created for the sounds...

When you look at Motif/Montage, it comes with a dedicated controll surface and thousands of arp's

When you look at the Korg PA4x and Yamaha Tyros, they come with huge and huge amounts of content..




The majorrity of musicians welcomes this content very very much...




So if anyone builds together a box with just sounds, it will not feel the same as a workstation/performance synth.....




Now either a comp[any needs to create a preferably modular version of the hardware workstations... complete with content...




Or, and thats my idea, we need to combine VST's with our hardware workstations, a Kronos replacement with a somewhat bigger screen could do miracle

And then there is 2 options, the VST's running on the hardware... or and thats my idea... the VST's running on sepperate computer hardware (either mac or PC) while the HArdware is not only the controll surface but also the audio interface (USB 3 has huge bandwith and when programmed right extreme low latency)....

This option allows you to mix the audio from the VST's in with the hardware sounds as well as routing hardware sounds trough VST effects.. most important thing is the VST's can be controlled from the Hardware, that has a dedicated controll surface with dedicated workflow and the sounds would feel as integrated into the hardware, but using cheap external computer hardware... even the VST controll surface, would be displayed on the keyboard, that technology of so called virtualisation is being used everywhere in high end information technollogy, process dont run on the Workstation but server side, the graphics are displayed on the client side...


With modern technollogy there is no reason not to implement it like this, NI komplete and Akai advance(VIP) are only a first step, what a fully integrated VST wrapper can do for Keyboard workstations when fully integrated is even more impressive...

[Bachus]

a touchscreen interface can work miracles when it comes to non real time content creation... and access to edditors and stuff....

I'm currently trying out Chrutil's AL-1 Windows editor on the 23" screen - It works very well, not perfectly, but easier and more enjoyable than shoving a mouse around.

As I said before, just like ordering an ATX case for a custom PC builds, we need something like that for Keyboards.

+1.

I suppose we're really thinking of a more affordable Open Labs Neko type system, maybe it was a tad too ahead of it's time. A less expensive version would probably do well now - I'd certainly buy one.

I threw mine together in a few days, just to see what it would be like. I'd like to make something far more elegant, but the chassis is too expensive to have fabricated. I could reduce the bulk by using the guts of a laptop and remove the PCBs from the ADAT interface enclosures. Doepfer have a nice DIY controller interface board which could be integrated - maybe a project for next year, but at the moment I'm busy with another DIY synth build

i dont think an open labs Neko system will sell big time...

there was another reason it didnt sell as well as it could..

there was no content creation...



When you have a look at the Kronos, it comes with a huge amount of Karma stuff specifically created for the sounds...

When you look at Motif/Montage, it comes with a dedicated controll surface and thousands of arp's

When you look at the Korg PA4x and Yamaha Tyros, they come with huge and huge amounts of content..




The majorrity of musicians welcomes this content very very much...




So if anyone builds together a box with just sounds, it will not feel the same as a workstation/performance synth.....




Now either a comp[any needs to create a preferably modular version of the hardware workstations... complete with content...




Or, and thats my idea, we need to combine VST's with our hardware workstations, a Kronos replacement with a somewhat bigger screen could do miracle

And then there is 2 options, the VST's running on the hardware... or and thats my idea... the VST's running on sepperate computer hardware (either mac or PC) while the HArdware is not only the controll surface but also the audio interface (USB 3 has huge bandwith and when programmed right extreme low latency)....

This option allows you to mix the audio from the VST's in with the hardware sounds as well as routing hardware sounds trough VST effects.. most important thing is the VST's can be controlled from the Hardware, that has a dedicated controll surface with dedicated workflow and the sounds would feel as integrated into the hardware, but using cheap external computer hardware... even the VST controll surface, would be displayed on the keyboard, that technology of so called virtualisation is being used everywhere in high end information technollogy, process dont run on the Workstation but server side, the graphics are displayed on the client side...


With modern technollogy there is no reason not to implement it like this, NI komplete and Akai advance(VIP) are only a first step, what a fully integrated VST wrapper can do for Keyboard workstations when fully integrated is even more impressive...

[Kevin Nolan]

The future is shaping up for the next few years in my view, in this way:

- Quality mono analogue synthesizers such as Sub37, DIA Pro2, Oberheim 2 Voice and the return of the Minimoog

- Push type controllers extending their capabilities

- Roli / Keith McMillian type controllers


I see all of these improving; and then, imminently:

- The return of superlative polyphonic synthesisers on a par with the Jupiter 8 and CS80

- Roli Seaboard / Blocks type technology being used in Push and Maschine like controllers



As amazing as Korg have been since the M1, I see them as not leading in any way today. They are selling lots and lots of interesting little devices, but they are not leading in any particular direction or category as they were with the Workstation, KAOSS Controller and Electribe. I feel Korg have lost their way. They are very profitable and popular no doubt - but - there's no longevity or 'game changer' in any of their stuff when compared to the likes of Ableton + Push, Roli control technology or even the more conventional Moog and DSI quality and authenticity (for which there will always be a place).


I truly hope Korg release a successor to the OASYS, but I doubt that'll ever happen.

[Koekepan]

I'm not really sure that I can agree with that.

KORG has a very interesting set of technologies, and they've been refreshing them (roughly) in turn. The electribes have had some love over the last couple of years (including a firmware update that added much-requested features) and while their little devices may not capture the imagination in the same way that some people have gone for, say, the AIRA idea from Roland, KORG is still head and shoulders above the rest of the field when it comes to straight up workstations.

It's not even particularly hard to figure out why; if you look back at this thread people mostly talk about performance features and sound design, but that's a small part of what workstations are designed to do. It's not fashionable, in these days of all software laptop production, but the fact is that there's a (lunatic, militant) underground of people who actually use those linear sequencers quite seriously. If I could have bought a Krome or a Kronos in the footprint of a microstation I would have been found by the police, straddling the chest of a sales representative, beating their face with a sock full of quarters, demanding that they take my money. If they had simply done a Krome without the keyboard, made as a module for sequencing other systems, it would have been a very similar story.

If I had been working for KORG, and pulled into a blue sky product vision meeting, here's what I'd suggest as a workstation refresh concept:

Take the best features of the Kronos, Krome, and tear a page from Roland's AIRA book. Develop a family of devices that talk to each other over USB C. (USB C can carry plenty of power, as well as very fast data transfer for studio-quality sound recording.) Make one a dedicated sequencer, capable of sequencing MIDI as well as triggering audio. Make one a (MIDI-automatable) mixer, make one a high end controller, make one a MIDI thru interface for controlling a whole lot of classic MIDI devices, make a few different synthesis devices...

That would push the whole workstation concept forward in a big way, while not losing the benefits of connecting to desirable older technology, and being accessible to performers, sound designers, recording bands and heads-down composition. It would also have the advantage of being something that could be purchased in bits and pieces, as need and funds led one to, and it would not be far from the old OASYS concept either. Give the sequencer a big, fat touchscreen by which it could control the various other bits, and the overall footprint could be pretty modest.

This way folks like you who embrace the thunderous applause of a salivating, sweating crowd of thousands can have the same system, using a best-of-breed controller with all the delicious knobs and tweakabilities you crave, while my troglodytic brethren and I can pore over parameter automation in measures 203 through 207, stroking our long, greying beards.

[Kevin Nolan]

Well - the Volca series and related products are, essentially, nothing. They are an attempt at a new approach, but they are junk, essentially. People buy them, try them out, and then discard them or sell them for next to nothing a year or two later on ebay. It's all cheap s**t.

I realise there's an entire industry / culture around 'little boxes' and Korg are right there with that no doubt about it; but it doesn't represent innovation or a true movement forward in the same way that Ableton is for the DAW or the Push controller is for live interaction with a computer environment.

Similarly, the KARP stuff is interesting - but when you look under the hood of, as just one example, Moog's Sub37, you realise that the Sub37 is in an entirely different league because the designers in Moog are actually coming up with new ideas; and so the the likes of the Sub37 is a genuine advance on analogue synthesis appropriate to our time (particularly the option for phase locked circuits that allow the Sub37 to work incredibly reliably and tightly to DAW environments). I could go on.


As for Kronos - piano sounds aside, it's an actual step backwards from OASYS - a 12 year old workstation. From an ergonomic and performance stand point OASYS is significantly superior - so - with regards to workstations, Korg are going backwards, not forward.

I realise I'm being very critical of Korg of late - but - they have, in my view, dropped the ball massively since the cancellation of OASYS and Radias. It's not clear to me what happened in Korg since around 2010, but they have turned into a kind of "Casio on steroids" company. Their website is tacky and cheap looking, they are advancing no music technology in the ways they did from the Korg M1 to the cancellation of OASYS, and it seems all to be about profit making and following trends rather than making trends. A shadow of the company they were just 6 years ago. Incredibly sad to see such massive decline, from quality, innovation and leadership standpoints. They are not alone in this, alas. Yamaha are as bad, and I'm not sure what to think of Roland though we can say that the Roland of today is not the Roland that lead to the TR808, VP330, Jupiter 8, D50, JD800 and V-Synth GT either. Curious times for the traditional "Big Three".

[Koekepan]

I'd be slow to dismiss all the small boxes as junk.

In fact, I'll be playing a gig in a couple of weeks, where what I do will largely depend on a brace of Volcas, with a few other devices. They're valuable parts of my sonic armoury, and I'm happy to have them. Could I do something fancier and better with an Access Virus? Quite likely - but I don't have one, and for the price of a virus you could build a MIDI mobile out of Volcas.

Again, your judgement of the Kronos as a workstation is shaped by, as you put it "ergonomic and performance" concerns. The sequencer is notably improved, and to the troglodytes of the world such as myself, that matters a lot. The only way I could really improve upon it would be a better interface for detail editing.

Another side to the argument on that front is that it's not very clear what they could or should do better. The workstation as a composition tool is quite different from the workstation as a one man band. How does the Kronos compare with, for instance, the new MPC? What would KORG's response to that look like? How could they further and better enable composition with a workstation?

I don't care what their website looks like. I want information, I go to their website, I get information. It's so low on my list of priorities that I think cockroaches nibble on it.

Also, it's hard to look too far down one's nose at Casio these days. I look at their development, and they're climbing up the ladder quite hard and fast. I have an XW-P1, and it's a solid piece of gear that is, in its way, a very nice and usable piece of performance gear that I obtained at a very reasonable price. In fact, it does a great job sequencing my Volcas.

So there you have it; I'm the polar opposite of you. I sequence Volcas with a Casio, I use workstations for composition rather than performance, and I'm more excited by precise use of what I have than the ability to dazzle in a live show. I don't know that I'm KORG's prime target market (in fact, I know that I'm not) but they've done great things recently, in my view.

Again, if I were the king of everything, another idea I might suggest to them would be a more advanced groovebox, with simple synthesis capabilities but a full sixteen channels and a nice sequencing interface. But once more that's my composer's view, rather than anything performers care about.

[Bertotti]

Different strokes for different folks. I have a combination of top end and entry level and have fun with all of them. I do get a kick out of the keyboard crowd though. Changing as fast as chips expecting leaps and bounds in development as well.

Guitarists look for a pedal guitars are still pretty much the same, drummers really how many ways can you make a shell. etc. I have top line and entry level in all of those and I still have fun with them all. In the end use what you got have fun and if some company lets you down someone else will pick it hopefully step up. I've given up lamenting the what ifs and wish had. I have gotten much more happy just being happy with where I am now.

Nevertheless it is still fun to debate! Now I am going to go put my PO by my Kronos for suture use.

[Kevin Nolan]

@Koekepan: Sure the Volca's are OK. And I fully concede there will be amazing musicians using them.

My main point (and disappointment) is that Korg have, in my opinion, lost their way. There are others driving the shape of future music technology forward, and Korg is not part of that any more. It's about Ableton, Roli - and in my opinion some synthesizer companies like Moog.

And indeed you're right - the workstation is not the be all and end all any more - we all know that. AKAI samplers had their time, and the Korg workstation has had its time. But I think this reinforces my point - beyond the workstation Korg seem lost. They are surely making products that for now are popular and profitable; but none of it is pushing the envelope.

In my opinion, performance is becoming increasingly important again - the advancements of Push2 over Push, Roli technology and so forth all suggest that the non traditional musician generation are maturing, getting more sophisticated and want better control and performance capability. So I see performance, control and tactile interaction with DAW environments as the next revolution. Meanwhile, Korg go almost exclusively minkeys, and where full keys are used as in the Taktile and KingKorg, are devoid of aftertouch - all a backward step. Meanwhile Moog re-release the Model D - with velocity and aftertouch!


Overall, I think Korg are right now in an artificial bubble that's going to burst very soon, and I do not see them as having a bright future because it looks like to me, as with Yamaha, they are driven by a marketing department and likely a new generation of designers who haven't any sense of depth or quality.

[Bertotti]

Kevin, "In my opinion, performance is becoming increasingly important again - the advancements of Push2 over Push, Roli technology and so forth all suggest that the non traditional musician generation are maturing, getting more sophisticated and want better control and performance capability. So I see performance, control and tactile interaction with DAW environments as the next revolution. Meanwhile, Korg go almost exclusively minkeys, and where full keys are used as in the Taktile and KingKorg, are devoid of aftertouch - all a backward step. Meanwhile Moog re-release the Model D - with velocity and aftertouch!"

good point!

[Koekepan]

If the problem is that KORG isn't giving us what we want - or will want in the foreseeable future - then perhaps it is up to us to give their product management team some hints.

We can discuss this here, and put forward a petition of sorts, so as to try to get some notice.

That said, I do have some idea how product management teams tend to work (and you can see this in KORG's products, if you know what to look for) so here's what I suggest: when you describe something that you want, attach to it a functional reason for why you want it that way.

For example:

I am a professional performing artist who uses a keyboard to control synthesis devices. I want a solid performance keyboard that offers velocity, polyphonic aftertouch, release velocity and 88 keys with hammer action so that I can drive my synths. It should be shaped to afford a solid handhold for moving it on and off stage, and it should have DIN MIDI ports offering two in, and two through ports so that I can pass multiple sequencer signals through it. I want to be able to use the two through ports so that I can do splits to two independent MIDI chains. I want it to be USB master as well so that I can attach USB slave synths to it without involving a computer. I also want it to afford combinations, by setting its output to multiple MIDI channels. It must have normal pitch bend and mod wheels. The pitch bend wheel must be sprung, while the mod wheel is not to be sprung. If the keyboard will weigh more than 20kg, I want a single wheel at one end so that I can roll it on and off stage rather than breaking my back carrying it.

Another example:

I am a DJ and producer who moves around a lot from gig to gig. I want to make very good use of my time in transit, and while the electribe is very nice, I want something more sophisticated; a sort of supertribe. This supertribe device needs to be able to render tones well enough for composition (so it needs a fairly flexible synth engine and some DSP effects on board) but it also needs to be able to control a full MIDI rig while on stage, so I will require both audio and comprehensive MIDI out. If it could manage 64 channels of MIDI through 4 MIDI outputs, that would be great. It needs rock solid clock timing, and at least two octaves of chiclet-style keys so that I can write melodies while sitting in an airplane seat. It needs ten hours of battery life and pattern-based control so that I can do live DJ work off it. It doesn't need speakers, but absolutely needs headphone out. Ideally, it should have two headphone outputs. Nice to have: could we please see quadraphonic mixing? That would be awesome. Because playing in an airplane seat is hard, it should have a touchscreen with a piano roll interface for tweaking notes, as well as step entry.

Another example:

I am an ambient composer, and I need a digital synthesis device that can do very high quality synthesis for pads, washes and so on without aliasing. 192KHz, 32 bits would be great. I want to be able to morph between waveforms, and I need to be able to design those waveforms with a few different approaches, such as FM and FFT synthesis. If the price is low enough I won't need a multitimbral option, because I will be able to afford a few of them, but otherwise I'll pay a little more to have 16 part multitimbrality and at least 64 voices of polyphony. I will need excellent automation and modulation options, so at least three multimode filters, three LFOs and a modulation matrix.

If we can tell KORG a wishlist, don't you think somebody might work with us? If we're lucky, we might even get one of their folks to touch base with us, and negotiate some good products that really push our game forward.

Who's in with me?

[jeremykeys]

Very interesting to read this discussion. I do get where Kevin is coming from but I also get where the idea for these small boxes comes from.

I think we need to step back and look at where the biggest synth market is and I think it's probably dance music and not so much hands on keys playing type music. I could be wrong but that's how it all looks to me.

Myself, I write a lot of different styles and I've learned to adapt to whatever instrument I'm using at the time. Sure, I do prefer actual knobs and if I can, I want each knob to only have one function. Like the Polysix for example. In fact one of the things that kept me away from Roland back in the day wasn't the sound but the use of sliders instead of knobs. Just a weird quirk I guess.

Where am I going with this you may well ask.

I don't know if there is going to be a great leap in future design coming up but these companies all need to keep making money. Maybe we're just waiting for some new mad genius to come up with some serious outside the box thinking.

I would be curious to see the balance sheets showing the total monies made between say the Kronos and the Volca line.

AS for this Genesis synth. I like it! I like the idea and I understand why he made it.

https://ask.audio/articles/watch-first- ... eton-live

[Broadwave]

This option allows you to mix the audio from the VST's in with the hardware sounds as well as routing hardware sounds trough VST effects.

Apart from the desirable control surface, that's what my DIY VST synth does - All my hardware plugs into the synth via a Fostex VC8 connected via ADAT to the M-Audio 1814FW. It gives me plenty of in/out options which are available as I/Os within the Imageline Minihost Modular software.

It allows me to route any external signal to VST FX/VST Synth filters etc and back out to the main mixer.

I've ordered a Dopefer USB64 (DIY Controller with 64 connections - Pots, switches etc). Once I've finished my current project, I'll rebuild the VST synth - It should end up pretty close to what we're talking about

If the problem is that KORG isn't giving us what we want - or will want in the foreseeable future

That's why I now build my own - The past two synths I've bought on the strength of reviews, (which just happen to be Korg) have been disappointing for one reason or another.

It's not just Korg - Roland and Yamaha are also spoon feeding us instant cheap gratification. I just wish they'd get something together that's NOT aimed at the DJ/EDM market - although there's nothing wrong with the Volca's, Boutiques etc. I'd like something that's more challenging. I'm grateful and lucky enough to have a Kronos - It may well be a 10 year old design, but there's just nothing to rival it at the moment.

Maybe we're just waiting for some new mad genius to come up with some serious outside the box thinking.


I'll get there eventually... Please don't feel sorry for me, but this is how I spend much of my time - It's very lonely back here

[Koekepan]

MIDI is great. I love MIDI. I use it on a daily basis for managing my rig.

But it's limiting. You only have so many channels. MPE is a hack at best. The number of CCs per channel is limited, and the workarounds are hacks.

They've been talking about HD-MIDI for more than a decade now, with no prospect of actually presenting anything meaningful.

If KORG wants to really innovate, they could start by building a Kronos successor with their best guess at HD-MIDI - and a guarantee that they will update the firmware to suit HD-MIDI's standards once, in Q3 of 2074, they actually produce a standard.

Or just regard MIDI as an antiquated protocol that is dying on the vine because the industry collectively would have a hard time locating its own rear end with both hands, a spotlight and a map. Augment and ultimately replace it with something like OSC.

Or license and adopt the protocol of the Eigenlabs people.

The point is that there's a long way that one could go by moving to a better designed way of communicating music, and while MIDI was eminently justifiable at the time it came out, with the hardware limitations of the day, it's now something of a millstone. A beautifully polished, gloriously decorative, surprisingly useful millstone, but a millstone nonetheless.

Many of the problems that we purportedly have, I don't really think of as problems. Physical interfaces are mostly OK. Sure, the seaboard, continuum and linnstrument add something to the game, but as a general rule we get by. Synthesis options are so broad these days that we actually have an embarrassment of riches. And if you can't synthesise what you want, you can sample it, nine times out of ten. 192KHz, 32 bits is no longer a laughably insane level of precision, but a serious possibility in software rigs. We can sequence practically anything, in practically any scale you care to mention. We can do generative music (tip of the hat to Karma, in the KORG world although that's more like cooperative generation), we can handle all sorts of tricks in mixing, in mastering, in our effects chains. In many aspects of what we do, the sky is the limit and KORG is happy to get us there.

But MIDI remains a limitation.

What is the most challenging task that you can imagine tackling in your musical field? Recording a mass orchestra and choir, perhaps? Mixing all those recorded stems? For some others, it would be more of a performance challenge (and let someone else worry about the recordings). For me, it would be a challenge of composition and synthesis. Composing a huge symphonic and choral piece (whether with virtual or real instruments, and virtual or real singers) and then synthesising that combination as hundreds of individuals, rather than a few channels of ensemble patches. There is no hardware that would do that, and only a really massive set of software and samples could hope to make that happen. One of the biggest challenges would be working around MIDI.

I do not foresee any huge advance on the pianoroll, or perhaps event-based composition interfaces such as trackers, so what that leaves us with is a deficit in how all this is communicated.

KORG, do you have the courage to challenge the MIDI orthodoxy?