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[ChrisDuncan]

I expect they are asking "how is this going to bring in revenue?"

I do not believe it is on our backs to suddenly try to figure out how Korg Inc can bring in ' more revenue ".

While Greg's right that we don't care how much money Korg makes (unless you own stock, I suppose), I believe Tim's point is the most relevant item on any enhancement request list, additive or subtractive.

I've worked as a software developer in the corporate world for 30 years now. Programmers would be enthusiastic about all of your requests. We like making cool things. But in the business world, the programmer's opinion means very little.

The suits decide what efforts company resources should be expended on (programmers are expensive). And trust me, that's all about revenue. If you want to get the ear of someone who has influence in the kingdom, it's Marketing you need to talk to.

Customer: Xyz is a bug. It should be fixed because bugs are wrong.
Marketing: Yeah, but people are buying it anyway.

Customer: Needs DIY motherboard to be user upgradeable.
Marketing: Yeah, but people are buying it anyway.

Customer: Needs 64 bit OS to be modern.
Marketing: Yeah, but people are buying it anyway.

Customer: If you added more flashing lights, you'd steal business from Roland.
Marketing: Great idea! Let me take this to management.

I'm joking of course, but only a little. Korg is not a charity, it's a for-profit business. If you want them to spend a lot of money paying programmers to fix a 9 year old synth (especially when people are buying it anyway) instead of using those resources on a new product to gain additional market share, then you're going to have to volunteer to pay the programmers. Korg, and every other company out there, ain't gonna do it.

[GregC]

I expect they are asking "how is this going to bring in revenue?"

I do not believe it is on our backs to suddenly try to figure out how Korg Inc can bring in ' more revenue ".

While Greg's right that we don't care how much money Korg makes (unless you own stock, I suppose), I believe Tim's point is the most relevant item on any enhancement request list, additive or subtractive.

it.

Chris, you are correctly bringing it home. Its all about the money.
The idea is 1 thing, but the ROI is what drives the behavior.

And KorgInc is a fair sized corporation. They are not a retailer that handles
a few small sales of components.

Plus Korg Inc's time is a huge deal. Their time is bunches of money.

Since we don't work for Korg, we don't have the detail or knowledge to make
some kind of financial contribution. Korg Inc is not a retailer.
Korg Inc is not a repair center.

Korg Inc is a manufacturer- have you noticed Korg Inc does not talk to us about Kronos ?

I don't have a problem with the brain storm of spending $500-$900 to greatly improve Kronos.

But that is a brain storm- its not a thought out detailed proposal
to make to Korg Inc.

if anybody wants to handle the work to make a business proposal to Korg Inc
I will attach it to my letter. That is a necessary tangible step when we talk about ' buying extra services etc '.

Or anyone can do that work independently and write to Korg Inc.
In any structure they prefer.

IMO, when a person communicates to a board of directors, CEO, president, its better to speak their business language. Thats a necessary step - they have to be convinced of the merit of the idea in business terms.

[Lightbringer]

Dear Korg Marketing Department,

If I were shopping for a new workstation today, one thing that would attract me to both the Montage and Fantom is that they appear to be getting a lot of good updates on a somewhat regular basis.

Perhaps the forum and social media buzz that results from occasional new features and enhancements would let the Kronos steal some market share from a Yamaha and Roland.

[GregC]

Dear Korg Marketing Department,

If I were shopping for a new workstation today, one thing that would attract me to both the Montage and Fantom is that they appear to be getting a lot of good updates on a somewhat regular basis.

Perhaps the forum and social media buzz that results from occasional new features and enhancements would let the Kronos steal some market share from a Yamaha and Roland.

hmm, I really like your 1st sentence

But Korg already knows we have a Kronos. So we aren't shopping.

I know that Kronos has lost ' demand ' and 2020 sales, to Yamaha and Fantom.
And folks are using software, etc etc

This was inevitable, I would bet Korg Inc saw it a few yrs ago.

So there is merit to pointing out Yamaha/Fantoms ongoing updates.

It is a selling point. Korg needs more selling points for Kronos.

Korg Inc has work to do on Kronos, its plain to me.
Owners will argue with me, on this, but I am not as 'satisfied '.

[NormC]

I don't think new engines are out of the question. Vox and Compact from Grandstage could easily be added.

Hi Norm, I really don't know what or if engines are 'easy' to implement on Kronos.

They are easy to add as they are software not electronics and a Grandstage is essentially a Kronos without the "workstation". If the Grandstage can run those additional engines then so can a Kronos.

I agree it is not a "need" but more of a "want".

I would also gladly pay for an OS upgrade that included a feature set and not just bug fixes. I am not asking Korg to give stuff for free.

[ChrisDuncan]

Just playing devil's advocate here for the fun of it, not to disrespect / diminish anyone's desires for updates.

That said, when I went shopping for a keyboard, I looked at the Fantom and Montage as well as the Kronos. Price wasn't a deciding factor, I was just looking for the best keyboard. I bought the Kronos because I felt it was a much more complete offering and ultimately the best choice. I know some of you keyboard junkies own all three (in fairness, don't ask how many guitars I own), but for those who had to make a singular choice, you obviously chose the Kronos and felt it was the best bang for the buck.

Once again from the perspective of the professional software world, here's another thing that programmers constantly bitch about. We're working on a cool thing. When we're done it will be a Certifiably Cool Thing. And that's what we want to deliver.

More often than not, however, we're given an arbitrary (read: Marketing mandated) deadline. When we complain that it'll only be half-baked by then, we're told to shut up, deliver the software, and "we'll address any deficiencies in an update once it's been released." The strategy is to just get something, anything, on the market to keep people from buying someone else's product.

Sometimes those updates happen, and contain genuine features and improvements. Often they're just fixes for the most glaring bugs and we're told to shut up and work on the next new product as this one's already shipped and making money. In the publishing world (I also write books), this is known as the "front list mentality," aka "fire and forget."

I bought the Kronos because you can never count on updates, and out of the box it was better than the other two. Fantom and Montage get more OS updates than Kronos. Maybe that's because they shipped a half-baked product to get something out there, with a "we'll fix it in the mix" mentality. From a Marketing perspective, the Kronos, already full featured enough to be my choice compared to the other two, doesn't need the updates - it's already superior.

9 years old is absolutely ancient in the tech world. As a point of comparison, when Windows XP was released, Windows 3.1 was 9 years old. At that time, Windows 3.1 looked like something an archaeologist might dig up. And yet, there were still people running 3.1 when XP came out, and they would doubtless have appreciated updates. But Microsoft didn't spend 9 years trying to prop up 3.1. Instead, they released something new. And that made them more money.

If I was running Korg, I'd say screw the updates. Kronos is still winning the buying decision often enough to be a viable product in today's market. I'd have my hardware and software guys working on the next Korg flagship. Probably something with as many flashing lights as the Roland System 8.

[GregC]

I don't think new engines are out of the question. Vox and Compact from Grandstage could easily be added.

Hi Norm, I really don't know what or if engines are 'easy' to implement on Kronos.

They are easy to add as they are software not electronics and a Grandstage is essentially a Kronos without the "workstation". If the Grandstage can run those additional engines then so can a Kronos.

I agree it is not a "need" but more of a "want".

I would also gladly pay for an OS upgrade that included a feature set and not just bug fixes. I am not asking Korg to give stuff for free.

we are in agreement, slight caveat, I am not a software engineer. It would be useful to hear a technical side on the relative ease of adding more engines.

Its my experience that when I stack 2 or more engines together in SEQ mode, Kronos goes into a coma. So more engines will stifle Kronos which is underpowered already. But this is a challenge for Korg Inc to figure out.

I prefer to keep my[our] letter to Korg Inc simple. I have no problem adding
that owners are open to paying a fee for certain enhancements.

Let Korg run with the details if they are motivated.

Currently, Korg Inc is not motivated on Kronos development IMO.

[GregC]

J.

1]If I was running Korg, I'd say screw the updates.

2] Kronos is still winning the buying decision often enough to be a viable product in today's market.

3]I'd have my hardware and software guys working on the next Korg flagship.

This is a debate topic so its open to opinions, etc.

1] Yes. I have noticed. Korg Inc has apparently stopped updates.

Thats why we are putting our collective effort towards a communication to Korg Inc.

2] Thats old news. In 2015- 2019, that was the case.

In 2020, Kronos is feeling all the competition. I don't make this up.
I make phone calls.

3] Not happening in 2020. 80% sure there is no wizze bang flag ship.
No big news in NAMM 2021. Thats my prediction,, how/why ? See 2 above.

And Kronos is an off shoot of Oasys. The era of that vision ended when the founder, Katoh died.

This is why I am not nostalgic about Korg Inc. The world that I live in is focused on " what have you done lately '.

I disagree that a new color Kronos is visionary. Just pointing out an example what the current Korg Inc emphasizes.

[ChrisDuncan]

This is a debate topic so its open to opinions, etc.

In the interest of full disclosure, I actually agree with the desire for significant updates. I mean, who doesn't like cool new toys for free?

This is why I am not nostalgic about Korg Inc. The world that I live in is focused on " what have you done lately '.

Ah, you work in sales. Been there, done that. No respect for experience, years with the company, just "yeah, but what have you done for me lately?" That was the thing I liked least about that profession, but that doesn't make it go away. Reality is annoying in its persistence.

I disagree that a new color Kronos is visionary. Just pointing out an example what the current Korg Inc emphasizes.

I'd be more impressed if the colors were blinking on and off. Then it would really be a competitor.

So here's a question for the class:

If you magically had the option of someone driving to your house, taking your Kronos, and giving you a brand new, in the box Fantom or Montage at no cost to you, would you ditch the Kronos and replace it with one of them?

I made my decision a couple of years ago but as Greg points out, always in motion is the future.

[GregC]

Hi Chris, good post/discussion

I am retired, prior to that, I had my own business for 10 yrs. My career background is mostly finance with some project mgmt. Have always worked
for intense sales oriented co's

" had the option of someone driving to your house, taking your Kronos, and giving you a brand new, in the box Fantom or Montage at no cost to you, would you ditch the Kronos and replace it with one of them? "

lets word it differently- if I was starting over again in music production, which
big dog board ?

Ranked in order of preference, money is not the primary driver:

1] Modx
2] Fantom
3] Software + midi controller
4] Kronos

My eyesight is poor. Kronos tiny fonts are miserable. I can read the LCD's pf MODX and fantom, no problem

Its basic- if I can't see the LCD detail, it matters little how great the sounds are.
And really, all 4 boards are 'very good ' to excellent in sound quality.

With MODX, I would give it a solid going over for 45 days. If I was not 100%, its Fantom.

Either or, I would have also studied the software platform of NI, etc.

[ChrisDuncan]

Yeah, sometimes a single thing, like readability, can be a game changer for better or worse. Doesn't matter how cool a gizmo is if you can't use it.

I really like the self-contained nature of the top tier workstations like Kronos, Montage & Fantom. I didn't want to worry about which piece of software was going to randomly freak out today (especially with the forced updates of Windows 10), I just wanted to sit down and play.

That said, for people starting out today I can totally see getting a good controller and just going software. There's so much great stuff out there. In some ways it seems almost insane to buy a big workstation like this, and I suspect that Korg, Roland and Yamaha are all fighting this reality to a certain degree. I'm sure that affects where they put their R&D money, which also influences how much time they're willing to spend on a legacy product like the Kronos.

Personally I would still go Kronos for my needs if I were buying today, but I'm always watching videos of other keys because, well, I like shiny objects. For the most part when I watch them it tends to be inspiration, since I know I can do 99% of what I'm hearing on the Kronos.

That said, like font size was a major factor for you, I'm wondering if there are any killer features in the Fantom / Montage that would make it worth it for people to retire their Kronos and go a new direction. It's unlikely that Korg will ever put out a major feature update, so if some features are important it might be time to change horses.

[GregC]

1) That said, for people starting out today I can totally see getting a good controller and just going software. There's so much great stuff out there. In some ways it seems almost insane to buy a big workstation like this, and I suspect that Korg, Roland and Yamaha are all fighting this reality to a certain degree. I'm sure that affects where they put their R&D money, which also influences how much time they're willing to spend on a legacy product like the Kronos.

2] I'm wondering if there are any killer features in the Fantom / Montage that would make it worth it for people to retire their Kronos and go a new direction.

3]It's unlikely that Korg will ever put out a major feature update, so if some features are important it might be time to change horses.
==============================================

my reply:

1) Thats the major driving factor. Native Instruments does an excellent job. And its possible to get a specialized midi controller that accesses the strength of the software.

This isn't new, I am simply starting to catch up with that herd.

2] The MODX/Fantom LCD is #1 for me. Fantom has excellent controls.
There are about 10 killer features on each board , features that Kronos can't touch.

I would have to create a spreadsheet, rank the features, etc etc. IOW, I would analyze it not just impulsively buy the board or because " I like the piano "

I am song writer, so any board has to solidly support my music production.

3] I think you are right. But that 'reality ' does not stop me from making from making a good push on Korg Inc.

I like a challenge. I enjoy solving problems.

Korg Inc is going to get a letter.

[ChrisDuncan]

The NI Komplete Kontrol S88 is very impressive in terms of an integrated solution with their libraries. The controller is a grand, bundled with the Ultimate collection software package it's 2 grand.

That makes for a very capable keyboard, and endlessly expandable as NI releases new libraries. The trade off is that a computer is required, whereas the flagship workstations are self-sufficient.

I like not having to have a computer attached, so the Kronos is still the center of my universe. However, if I was going to add a second keyboard, I'd seriously consider this over the Montage / Modx and Fantom because it's a different kind of solution rather than a different flavor of the same thing.

Plus, you know, cool flashing lights.

[GregC]

I am impressed by the NI package.

I am on a MacBook Pro, and very happy with it.

[ChrisDuncan]

Fortunately, I have two major worlds still unexplored - 99.5% of the sounds in the Kronos, and my studio environment with a Fatar weighted 88, FM8, Cubase's Halion, some orchestral stuff and a JV-2080 in the rack.

I figure there's no point in buying a gazillion more sounds until I see what I can do with the first gazillion. So far that's managed to keep my credit cards safe.