Kronos engines cover all the bases - wanna bet?

[biggrime]

Every once in a while I see a post that asks what could Korg possibly add to what the Kronos already does. It covers all the bases of synthesis, they say. Here’s why that’s not true. For all you people with an attention span that can deal with a 20 minute video, here is what Korg could add, if they come out with a Kronos 3. Especially around 7:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCujIf5eJ2w

Does the kronos cover all the bases in general? Yea but that doesn't mean it can do everything little thing. I don't want it to. Some synthesis is kinda unnecessary if you have certain kinds already. The method is different but very similar results. I don't get caught in the how the sound is created but the end result.
The kronos could make things easier. Simple things such as bouncing your midi track to audio. I shouldn't have to audio record the seq track. Save it to disk. The load the audio from disk back into a audio track. At one time i wish they put the odyssey engine in the kronos but really do we need that? What can the odyssey do al-1 cant?

[Gunnar]

So what do analog oscillators sound like? A square wave is a square wave no matter how it's made.

If you see this video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gLBpMyPM6I), you'll notice that the Moog Mother-32's saw and square waves aren't "perfect". The saw has a bit of a curve to the slope and the square has a slope on what should be flat max/min amplitudes. I did a comparison between saw waves between Kronos, Moog Mother-32 and my Arturia MiniBrute 2 a while back. The AL-1 waves are quite mathematically perfect while both the analog ones are less so.

To what extent that is actually audible in practice, I shall not say. Without any further processing involved (like filters) the differences are quite minute. Especially if you do run these in a mix with other instruments.

Are you talking about the tuning drift due to non precise analog circuits? A digital oscillator can have tuning anomalies built into it by software.

Both the MS-20 and PolySix engines on the Kronos have this analog modulation built in, and I must say that sounds wonderful. I've recently rediscovered the PolySix for realtime playing and tweaking because it is so simple and most control is available on the Control Surface.

On a side note, Arturia's V Collection has done something similar to Korg in that they've modelled a bunch of vintage circuits and produced VST replicas of synths like the Buchla, Prophet 5, Mini Moog, Farfisa, etc.. I don't have originals to compare to but I also think these sound pretty good.

It is not just the pitch of the oscillator that is off though.. It is also timing of envelopes and stability of the LFOs, etc.. all sources have some inherent instability in them. Which is to a large extent what makes it interesting, I think.

I'm just curious when I hear someone touting analog oscillators over digital, am I missing something?

Of course analog filters have a huge difference compared to digital filters but oscillators?

Geo

I tend to agree with you. The magic is in the filter.. The brute-factor on the MiniBrute2 is a built-in filter feedback for instance, and nothing I patch up in MS-20, MOD-7, IFX routing or through ext-audio patching comes close. But that is on the pretty extreme end of things. For the most part, especially once in a mix, the Kronos is fine (better than fine . Combined with the flexibility it offers, I'm still quite happy with it.

[geoelectro]

I agree. I mentioned a square wave is a square wave no matter how it's made as a visual easy comparison. You are correct that all square waves are not perfectly square. However, a digital representation can be made to be exactly like any other form of a wave. In fact, many analog waves are included in the sample list. In Omnisphere for example, they have waves directly sampled from analog synths.

Consider this, in an analog synthesizer, the oscillators are always running. This means the tuning differences and phase relationships are constantly changing as drift. In a digital oscillator, the oscillator doesn't usually run until a key is pressed. This could mean there might be a difference in those relationships due to depending on key closures.

When I started sampling back in the 80's, I sampled a Hammond organ. (Emax) What I discovered was sometimes notes sounded out of phase while other times sounded normal. I realized that a Hammond organ tone generator runs all the time so all phase relationships are set and don't change. However, playing back samples does cause these relationships to change since the notes only begin when a key is pressed. This was finally corrected with software modelling by having free running tones in software.

Perhaps this could be done (maybe it already is) to achieve an even closer to the real thing goal in synthesizers.

You don't see this as a problem in say a piano since even a real acoustic piano doesn't start sounding until a key is pressed.

It's funny, back in the day we bemoaned the tuning issues and slow warmup etc. Now, with perfectly tunes instruments, we now want to put it back in!

Geo

[Bachus]

Good point. Also the most obvious- no true analog in the Kronos.

For a digital synth i would say, most obvious missing thing is wavetables, wavetables are becomming more and more popular...

Would you consider the Waldorf Microwaves and Blofeld wavetable synths? What about the Prophet VS?

The Kronos has plenty of single cycle waves, including all the VS waves. Pop them into the wavesequencer and you have a wavetable synth like the old classics.

No, wavetables work quite differently from wavesequencing.. and give quite different options..

Good example of Korg Wavetable is the DW8000 and the upcomming modwave... do from that point of view, the Korg has an engine for wavetables

Other things missing are an additive synth engine.. or granular synthesis.


Personally, i prefer a modern sequencer..much more like the fantom.. with a piano roll for edditing.. but thats not where this topic is about..

[KingKronos]

Bachus, please give my suggestion a try. If you use single cycle waves per step, you can indeed get the same sound as on a Blofeld or Prophet VS or the old classic WT synths.

I have a Blofeld, and had a DW8000 for a few years. The old type of wavetable synths simply used single cycle waves as oscillators. I used to put the DW8000's single data slider onto the oscillator parameter and move it manually to get a live scroll through the wavetables. I thought of it as oscillator sample and hold back then, before I knew better that it was wavetable scanning. You can still do this in HD1 or MOD7 by highlighting the PCM multisample and moving the data slider up and down, except that you have to keep pressing the keyboard note to trigger the new oscillator. The wavesequencer will automatically re-trigger each step for you.

In fact, you can use the Position parameter of the wavesequencer to cycle through the steps, either with an LFO or manually via ribbon. The same way the Blofeld cycles through its wavetables. When I was considering getting a Hydrasynth or a Quantum, I listened to some of the demos and managed to re-create their demos of wavetable scanning in the Kronos. Not 100%, but definitely close enough. WS can absolutely do old-school wavetable synthesis.

Granular:

Charles Ferraro has a video showing how to use the WS to get basic granular synthesis results. FX 60: Grain Shifter can do some basic granular too, try using it on Laugh or 1504: Marc Tree, for example.

You can do basic transwave synthesis with the WS too. You'll have to prep your sample first, by slicing it in the sampler into tiny chunks and exporting the lot as a series of wav files. Plop them into the WS, assign ribbon to Position, and bam, transwave!

[KingKronos]

Korg really do need to put a more modern type sequencer into a workstation.

It would be nice if they could use both the linear and pattern sequencer in the Kronos now, but also tack on a step sequencer and arranger type like found on the Fantom. A sequencer that keeps on looping while you add new parts to it, instead of having to stop and start.

I just found out about the Drumlogue. That will be interesting since it has a modern step sequencer. Bonus is that you can add custom waveforms like on the Prologue, Minilogue XD, and NTS1. I have the last two, and added a few user oscillators. There's even a phase distortion user oscillator, like the one from the Casio CZ synths.

Come on Korg, put it all together and release the Kraken!

[Bachus]

Bachus, please give my suggestion a try. If you use single cycle waves per step, you can indeed get the same sound as on a Blofeld or Prophet VS or the old classic WT synths.

I have a Blofeld, and had a DW8000 for a few years. The old type of wavetable synths simply used single cycle waves as oscillators. I used to put the DW8000's single data slider onto the oscillator parameter and move it manually to get a live scroll through the wavetables. I thought of it as oscillator sample and hold back then, before I knew better that it was wavetable scanning. You can still do this in HD1 or MOD7 by highlighting the PCM multisample and moving the data slider up and down, except that you have to keep pressing the keyboard note to trigger the new oscillator. The wavesequencer will automatically re-trigger each step for you.

In fact, you can use the Position parameter of the wavesequencer to cycle through the steps, either with an LFO or manually via ribbon. The same way the Blofeld cycles through its wavetables. When I was considering getting a Hydrasynth or a Quantum, I listened to some of the demos and managed to re-create their demos of wavetable scanning in the Kronos. Not 100%, but definitely close enough. WS can absolutely do old-school wavetable synthesis.

Granular:

Charles Ferraro has a video showing how to use the WS to get basic granular synthesis results. FX 60: Grain Shifter can do some basic granular too, try using it on Laugh or 1504: Marc Tree, for example.

You can do basic transwave synthesis with the WS too. You'll have to prep your sample first, by slicing it in the sampler into tiny chunks and exporting the lot as a series of wav files. Plop them into the WS, assign ribbon to Position, and bam, transwave!

I will be trying both when i get home after the weekend.

[trancedelicbluesman]

Having just joined the forum this is the first I am seeing this thread. Synthesis is a topic dear to my heart and the Kronos provides so many options. I see several things to try here.

Additive would be awesome to have, as would granular and wavetable. I wonder if Korg might add the latter 2 things as modes to the sampler, like Halion or the sampler in Bitwig?

People talk about differences in analog gear but to my ears there are also differences in software purporting to do the same thing. Otherwise why do so many electronic musos have dozens of virtual synths?

For example, to my ears all the synths by A. I. R. (Hybrid, Loom, Vacuun pro) have a lush sound--as does the Kronos in a different way--whereas all the synths in Bitwig have a certain bite to them.

One thing I knowfor sure, I am not about to exhaust the possibilities of the Kronos any time soon.

[exsequor699]

None instrument covers everything and "does it all", it doesn't work that way. But Kronos is great in many ways.

[davc]

it did a lot and had lots o stuff under the hood 10 years ago when the first Kronos 88 came out .. that's when I got mine .. ! many other synths , digi & analog have come and gone over the last decade in the studio ...

[KingKronos]

Having just joined the forum this is the first I am seeing this thread. Synthesis is a topic dear to my heart and the Kronos provides so many options. I see several things to try here.

Additive would be awesome to have

In a way, Kronos already has a powerful additive engine.
The default MOD7 program assigns the sliders to operator volume.
Similarly, knobs 1-6 control operator 1-6 ratio.
Every operator has its own dedicated envelope.

Those are all the ingredients you need for an additive synth.
The ratios represent harmonics, and go up to the 64th partial.
So you can put operator 1 ratio to 1, op2 to 2, op3 to 3, etc.
Like an organ's drawbars, you can quickly "shape" your sound.

What about more harmonics, you ask.
The Kawai additive synth has dozens of harmonics available at once.
Simple. Make one MOD7 program have harmonics 1-6. Save it.
Make another MOD7 program for harmonics 7-12. And so on.
The put those MOD7 programs all in a combi.
Bam... hand's on slider control of all those harmonics.
Faster, better, more powerful than Kawai and most additive synths!

...as would granular and wavetable. I wonder if Korg might add the latter 2 things as modes to the sampler, like Halion or the sampler in Bitwig?

Kronos has these covered as well.
See Charles Ferraro's stickied tips on granular using the wavesequencer.
And don't forget FX 060: Grain Shifter.
The Tape Echo FX parameters can be mapped to controllers as well.
With this you can simulate granular, record-scratching, and even sync.

As far as Korg adding more features to the Kronos...
don't hold your breath. Updates haven't come in years.
Korg is focusing its development energy in other newer synths.

People talk about differences in analog gear but to my ears there are also differences in software purporting to do the same thing. Otherwise why do so many electronic musos have dozens of virtual synths?

For example, to my ears all the synths by A. I. R. (Hybrid, Loom, Vacuun pro) have a lush sound--as does the Kronos in a different way--whereas all the synths in Bitwig have a certain bite to them.

I agree with you here!
Even within the Kronos itself, its soft synths sound different.
Compare a swept filter on a saw, for example.
Try it in the Poly 6, MS20, and AL1 engines. Different sounding, for sure.
The Poly6 does Roland type plucks better than the other VAs, imo.
The MS20 has a natural "alive" sound to it already.
The AL1 is a chameleon.

Even those can have a certain default "sound" or lushness or sterility.
Changing those characters is easy enough.
Try polyphonic unison, the Tube, Mic, and Amp/Cab sims, compression.
And of course the numerous EQ options.
The various soft synths in the Kronos can adopt nearly any character as needed.

One thing I know for sure, I am not about to exhaust the possibilities of the Kronos any time soon.

Buddy, if you're a synthesis specialist, you're in for a treat.
Strap yourself in for the long haul. Say 5-7 years.
AL1 with its FM/sync/random options.
The dual multi-filter. The loads of FX and routings.
MOD7 is top dog in phase modulation and waveshaping.
And it's a mini-modular synth. Pipe in audio from other synths.
Still the one to beat, with even recent FM soft synth releases.
Chuckle to yourself when others tout their synth's Karplus Strong attempts.
That is physical modeling 101, compared to STR1's phd-level abilities.

And of course, the never-ending, always up-to-date sampled wave importing.
Want a CS-80 inside? There is a Deckard's Dream library out there.

But wait, there's more!
Connect an ipad, pipe it thru Kronos FX, and you stay state of the art.

Kronos is still the King.

[ShaoCan]

Yes, I'd be happy to bet on this event.

[trancedelicbluesman]

Strap yourself in for the long haul. Say 5--7 years

The Kronos is indeed a very rich synthesis resource; I am sure I will be referring back to your post here again.

[KingKronos]

Strap yourself in for the long haul. Say 5--7 years

The Kronos is indeed a very rich synthesis resource; I am sure I will be referring back to your post here again.

Thanks, I’m definitely a Kronos super fan.
I want to share my experiences with any who will listen.
But too many words seems to lose too many ppl.
One of these days I ought to set up a YouTube channel.
Video tutorials are the best way to learn by example.

Have fun!