Improving CX3 sound

[iluvchiclets]

I think the basic Hammond sound is in the Kronos - drawbars tones are relatively easy to replicate compared to, say, a piano!

The Kronos has the keyclick which is pretty good (although for those of you who have played a real buss-barred Hammond, there is a slight difference)

The K has the leakage and the overtones...not bad! So, what's missing?

I think the overdrive needs help, as it's a bit buzzy sounding. The most obvious thing to me, though, is the Chorus/Vibrato effect. It is not accurate in terms of width, or the Q-frequency, or something. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I have fiddled with the custom C/V parameters on the Kronos, on the M3, and on the M50 and I keep ending up with this very Korg-like sound.

One play on a Nord (or even a Roland VK-8) and I hear an accurate bang-on Chorus/Vibrato. The leakage has to throb and breath with the C/V.

I feel that is the most significant thing that needs help on the CX-3.

[rrricky rrrecordo]

I love cx-3 imho it's not a weak point at all...but improving is a good idea... I know that cx-3 is a emulation of b3 and I would like to have also vox and continental emulation!

Maybe if you can bypass the Leslie sim completely, set the organ vibrato effect to your liking and run the output into a guitar amp sim, you might get close. You might also try the extended drawbar mode (or whatever it's called) and mess with the harmonics of the "extra" drawbars. Just a thought... good luck!

A friend of mine at one time had both the hardware CX-3 and the Roland VK-something, and I preferred the Korg by far And although the stock Trinity didn't have drawbars, the Leslie effect was first-rate and really made the Trinity produce some kickass B3 sounds. I believe that the Leslie sim in the Trinity was very close to the Korg G4 stompbox Leslie effect, which I loved, and which was favourably reviewed as I recall in both SOS and Keyboard Magazine back in the day. When I upgraded to V3, MOSS gave me virtual drawbars and the B3 sounds I got out of that were brilliant, although only in six-voice polyphony. Still love the MOSS board to this day.

[jeremykeys]

According to Sound on Sound magazine from an old article, the leslie sim is a direct copy of the G4 Korg pedal.
i'm also one of the people here who have no problem with the B'3 emulation on the Kronos. The CX-3 is perfectly fine for me. I own an old Hammond M-3. No Leslie though I'm thinking about a Ventilator pedal for it and I'd be running it through my home stereo. It lives in my living room. But besides that, everyone in my band loves it, audiences and other musicians are blown away by the sound. I built my own clone and by using the controller knobs and the draw bars I can get exactly what I want.
There was a You-Tube video on the forum not too long ago. Maybe someone can find it and post it here for all the people that want to learn about the CX-3 organ living in our beasties!

[Phabius]

According to Sound on Sound magazine from an old article, the leslie sim is a direct copy of the G4 Korg pedal.

I had a G4.
I won't trust my memory, but I'm pretty sure the G4 sound was balsier, not so buzzy as with the CX-3 drive. And the Mic Positions helped to get more tremolo effect aswell...

This a very old video. I was a guest in this band.
The concert is from 1997.
Its a clean Alesis Quadrasynth organ sound and the Korg G4.
And, oh, my beloved Prophecy, which I miss so much for its brass and reed models...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l5HV2IEsNs

[Dniss]

According to Sound on Sound magazine from an old article, the leslie sim is a direct copy of the G4 Korg pedal.

I had a G4.
I won't trust my memory, but I'm pretty sure the G4 sound was balsier, not so buzzy as with the CX-3 drive. And the Mic Positions helped to get more tremolo effect aswell...

This a very old video. I was a guest in this band.
The concert is from 1997.
Its a clean Alesis Quadrasynth organ sound and the Korg G4.
And, oh, my beloved Prophecy, which I miss so much for its brass and reed models...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l5HV2IEsNs

That was totally delightfull! Being a big fan of PF, I enjoyed every seconds of it. And yes, the organ sounds very good.

The CX-3 is...ok. Not sure what's missing and perhaps it's in my mind or just user experience, but it's missing something.

[.Jens]

According to Sound on Sound magazine from an old article, the leslie sim is a direct copy of the G4 Korg pedal.

I had a G4.
I won't trust my memory, but I'm pretty sure the G4 sound was balsier, not so buzzy as with the CX-3 drive.

I also used the G4 and it definitely has more balls than the overdrive of the CX3. I assume it's only the leslie and maybe speaker sim, which is an exact copy of the G4. AFAIK the G4 incorporated the original tube screamer circuit - so there is no algorithm working here (on the OD). The CX3 has a digital model for OD, which wasn't the best 10 years ago, and is very low end compared to others today.

[sigiriuk]

If you want that Hammond Sound, and you don't have a crane, and a small army to move a B3, my experience is that some type of proper rotary speaker with a 15in bass speaker will give you the overdrive and Leslie sound that audiences associate with the Hammond.

It works on a Nord, a Kronos, and my XK3c equally well and the audience will love it. Of course the XK3c gives a wider palette of sounds.

A few points:
-Forget Leslie sims, and IMHO even the Ventilator - you'll waste your money
-Buy a 2101 Mk2 or a MotionSound Pro3x and a 15in speaker to handle the low end.
-the kronos doesn't come close to an XK3c

[.Jens]

A few points:
-Forget Leslie sims, and IMHO even the Ventilator - you'll waste your money

I disagree - or let's say: it depends. For recording sessions or blues/jazz in small venues, where you get most of the leslie sound directly from stage, there is nothing to compare with a true mechanical rotating speaker.

But once you go for a "miked" leslie on larger stages, current leslie simulations do a very good job, at least for organs in a band context. In many cases, depending on the skills of your sound engineer, the sims will often sound even better through the PA than a screwed-up leslie hidden somewhere in the backline. Consider not only your personal listening experience sitting right next to your leslie, but also what the audience gets.

For everything inbetween, you have to chose your priorities: easier handling (not only physical, but also in terms of wiring, routing and tweaking your sound) vs. the real box. I tend to use my washing machine only on special occasions - I know the difference, but often it's not worth the additional work at the end of the day.

[jeremykeys]

I didn't know the G4 had Tube Screamer circuitry built into it. I was only repeating what I had read. I guess it all depends on how much realism you want as opposed to what you want to carry. I'm lazy and my car won't fit all that much so I'm sticking with the Kronos for orgon sounds. I find that once you get blended in with the rest of the band it works just fine.

[jimknopf]

The CX3 has a digital model for OD, which wasn't the best 10 years ago, and is very low end compared to others today.

I agree 100%.

The rest of the CX3 emulation is much better than some silly presets seem to indicate at first sight. It's really fun to use it, and it offers a lot for a well done B3 sound. But the internal Kronos CX3 overdrive is it's weak spot: it sounds digitally harsh, and nowhere even remotely near the orginal Leslie tube overdrive. Even the little distortion and overdrive stombox effects in my Access Virus TI do a much better job.

Clear feedback to Korg development: cure that in a future OS update, and the CX3 will be among the very best B3 clones available.

[ccmacdon]

I have to admit that I'm struggling a bit with the CX3 emulation.. first of all I should point out that I am a Hammond B3 player first, and I've had numerous real hammonds and leslies over the years, and I currently own a NORD C2 that I use for gigging.. Despite the NORD having a pretty good leslie sim, I use the Ventilator and a pair of QSC K10's. I also owned a Korg Digital BX3 for several years, which I mostly used with a real 147 leslie, so I am very familiar with the BX3 parameters, and the sound.

So why am I struggling.. first of all the CX3 programs that come with the Kronos are AWFUL, and quite frankly despite the Kronos being a pretty good all in one keyboard, I am embarrased to suggest or recommend the Kronos to any of my organ pals, because of the poor quality of the CX3 programs. If I had to describe the factory CX3 programs in one sentence it would be... "Every non-Hammond organ players idea of what a hammond sounds like rather than what a real Hammond sounds like". I don't know how else to describe it, the sounds are all overly bright, or overly distorted, or there's too much chorus, and there is something wrong with almost every factory CX3 program that I listen too..

A friend, suggested that I take one factory program and use it as a starting point to build myself a good sounding organ, and the program he suggested was:

Iternal A-054: CX3 ORGAN 888 SW1

This actually did turn out to be a good starting point, because out of all the awful factory programs it's actually one of the programs that really does sound close to a real B3. So I took it apart and started playing with it and tweaking it to my liking, and before you know it I actually did have a pretty good sounding hammond organ.

That said, I am very fussy about my hammond sound, and I have to say that I'm not done tweaking it yet. Here are the things that I'm still struggling with:

1. While the leslie sim isn't bad, but it's not up to par with the current leslie standard (the Ventilator), and while there are a lot of tweakable parameters I have not yet been able to get it to sound as good.

2. The percussion isn't quite right.. it sounds too digital, and it's not quite woody enough. I have a good quality recording of the percussion in my original BX3 playing Green Eyed Lady by Sugarloaf which has some GREAT percussion organ in it.. and unfortunately neither the Kronos CX3 or the original digital BX3 quite get it.

3. I am struggling to find a good setting for the Chorus/Vibrato, and I'm not sure that I completely understand the available parameters, but I continuing to play with this to try and get it right (C/V is very much a matter of taste and different organ players have very different opinons on what sounds good).

4. The keyboard scaling and EQ is causing me a great deal of trouble. When I get the mid octaves sounding good, the top octave is weak and doesn't scream, when I get the top octave sounding good the percussion doesn't sound good.. I just can't get the organ to sound good right across the keyboard.

5. Others have complained about the Overdrive, and I have to chime in here as well.. it sounds a little artificial/digital to me, and like a number of other clones I have played there is a lack of subtlety to it.. between no overdrive and too much overdrive there is not enough space to subtely add OD.

All that said, I am pretty fussy, but I tweaked the CX3 engine enough to have a pretty good sound, that is quite usable, HOWEVER, I am using a Ventilator pedal, because it gives me both a GREAT leslie sim AND it solves the problem of the digital sounding Overdrive.. (the Ventilator has fantastic warm realistic overdrive).. However, I'm still not happy with the sound because while it's nice and warm in the middle octaves it's just NOT screaming in the top octave the way a real Hammond would. So I'm still working on it and I'll be doing more tweaking.

I think that the Kronos is very close to being the BEST all-in-one keyboard out there, and one of the reasons is the fact that it has all the sounds and characteristics of a top quality workstation AND it has the CX3 engine. Unfortunately, wven with a few tweaks, the CX3 engine isn't quite up to par with the current crop of clone technology (new organs like the Crumar Mojo, Hammond SK series, NORD C2D/Electro 4D etc).. To be a real contender as a true "all-in-one" keyboard, the CX3 engine does need to be improved. For future CX3 upgrades we need a better rotary sim, update the Chorus/Vibrato, separate tone/colour control over the Percussion, warmer more realistic overdrive, and some better options for EQ scaling across the keyboard.

If we can do that, this CX3 engine will kill.

[michelkeijzers]

I wonder if it would be a good idea to do the following since I also have a Triton Extreme:

- Output CX3 from output 1/2 or 3/4 to the Korg Triton Extreme (sample input)
- Use the internal physical tube.
- Output the Extreme L/R to the sample inputs of the Kronos.
- Output the combined CX3 sounds with other sounds to the L/R to the monitors/PA.

[nitecrawler]

A few points:
-Forget Leslie sims, and IMHO even the Ventilator - you'll waste your money
-Buy a 2101 Mk2 or a MotionSound Pro3x and a 15in speaker to handle the low end.-

I have a Motion Sound KBD 3D that contains a physical rotory horn to throw the sound that works well in a live environment. As long as you get the horn up high enough from the floor. It also contains a 12ax7 pre amp tube that helps. To be honest, its close but is not really a perfect replica to an actual Leslie rotor system. It is much easier to carry around, which is no small point to be considered as well as the small footprint of the amp.

[jerrythek]

The CX3 is as good as any clone wheel out there, but it does need tweaking. I find too much OD and distortion in the Korg presets; but this is easily corrected.

I think that's what is bothering me about the presets, too. I'd like to get a cleaner sound. I have no doubt it's possible - I just haven't figured out how to do it.

I'm slowly working my way through the engines .. Have spent a bit of time on the pianos, EPs, MS20, poly6, and a bit of HD1 so far. I think some "quality time" with the CX3 is in order. I still have my Roland VK8, and got to where I could quickly dial in the sounds I want on that. I just haven't yet gotten to that point with CX3.

I have discussed this before in posts (easily found via search), but there's a couple of points about the CX3 model to understand.

The internal amp overdrive parameter is tied into the expression pedal, and the expression knob found on the Tone Adjust Page (Main Screen - Control Surface - Tone Adjust Tab). So if you play the CX3 without using a pedal it will sound like you've always got the pedal at a set level, which may be too much for you. The first thing you should try is going to the Tone Adjust and dialing down the expression value some. If your sound gets too quiet you can bring up the Master Volume for that Program. Or better yet, start using an Expression Pedal!



Still too much overdrive? Then you need to go into the Amp Page itself and dial down the Amp Gain, and then to compensate for the drop in volume, bring up the Output Level (Main Output) lower on the page.

Try these two ideas and let me know if they help you "tame" some of the presets you'd like to use.

I don't personally disagree with some of the comments about refining the engine even more - this was work that was done over 12 years ago, and designed to fit within the DSP code space of a specific chip system. So time, refinement, and more code space could certainly produce even better results. The C/V, distortion, and drawbar/tone key scaling are all areas I'd love to see worked on, as others have pointed out.

That said, I still love playing these sounds, and within a band context they work wonderfully. We're talking about refining an already good instrument/model, that is something I am happy to use on a daily basis. But just like my own playing, I am always wanting things to get even better.


Regards,

Jerry

[ccmacdon]

Do you mean the KBR - 3D? I haven't tried the KBR - 3D but I don't like any of the other Motion sound stuff that I have tried.. the pro3x or the pro-145 both suck, when compared to a real leslie (sorry don't mean to offend anyone).. neither do I like the 2101. Maybe the KBR-3D is better, but I can't say..

However, I can say that the ventilator is fabulous.. slick, small, light, and no moving parts to break, and the sound through a good monitor system is outstanding! I would much prefer a Ventilator pedal and either one or two QSC monitors (one if you normally go through the FOH system, or 2 if your sound comes live off the stage)!

Just my opinion of course, but I've been through a lot of different amps/leslies, and leslie pedals over the years.. I've been using the Vent and 2 QSC K10's for ever since the Ventilator came out and it's spectacular!