velocity curve doesn't reach 127

Ten2One · Post by **Ten2One** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:30 am

If one reads vstkeys post he didn't call ANYONE stupid he called the thread stupid. Though I don't agree with his position in that regard I understand how difficult it is to have a situation that seems to be caught in limbo and the fear of other topics pushing your concerns to the rear.

I both regret/and am thankful others are having the velocity issue. You mentioned your 61 has this problem as well, I would ask that you join us in contacting korg and alerting them concerning this problem. They stated I was the only one in the USA that has called in about it.

My Kronos is usable but not right and after so many problems with the keybed it is easy to lose perspective when other issues with the keybed arise.

I could sell it but there isn't anything that can match the features of the Kronos, I'd just like to get one to work properly!

Ten2One

vstkeys · Post by **vstkeys** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:09 pm

Thanks Ten2One

I understand how difficult it is to have a situation that seems to be caught in limbo and the fear of other topics pushing your concerns to the rear.

That's exactly what i tried to say, and it is really annoying when very important postings get pushed to the rear by not so important ones.

Ten2One · Post by **Ten2One** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:51 pm

vstkeys,

The beauty of this and other forums is that we have the opportunity seek advice/assistance from those more knowledgeable or opinionated and every inquiry is important, at least to those making it. I like reading posts that aren't directly related to my needs just to get a better picture of how others are using the K.

While a list of controllers isn't as important as resolving the velocity issue to me personally, I can appreciate the importance it holds for others. My hope is that everyone who owns a Kronos will do a simple test to check for the velocity issue. Contacting Korg about the issue is very important, but, I believe the volume of complaints and concern voiced on this forum played a major roll in getting the keybed fix. Now my fixed keybed needs a fix!

Ten2One

Cpilot · Post by **Cpilot** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:47 pm

Well, if it's any consolation, I can't get a velocity of 127 on my Yamaha arranger. Best I can get is 119. And the keys aren't as sturdy as the Kronos so if I really thumped them they would break. So it's not unique to Korg. Be nice if they would come up with a way to play around with the velocity curve though. Surprised they didn't do it in the first place.

Bryan

Davidb · Post by **Davidb** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:40 pm

Ten2One wrote: Contacting Korg about the issue is very important, but, I believe the volume of complaints and concern voiced on this forum played a major roll in getting the keybed fix. Now my fixed keybed needs a fix!

As Korg does not supply the whole change of the full keyboard any more, but only the contacts, I do not see a workaroud for this issue in a coming future.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:19 pm

Davidb wrote:
Ten2One wrote: Contacting Korg about the issue is very important, but, I believe the volume of complaints and concern voiced on this forum played a major roll in getting the keybed fix. Now my fixed keybed needs a fix!

As Korg does not supply the whole change of the full keyboard any more, but only the contacts, I do not see a workaroud for this issue in a coming future.

According to someone above said that it also related to the 61, it is maybe not related to the contacts (only).

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:28 pm

I think the velocity sensitiveness can be corrected by a simple software fix. Indeed we adjust the responsiveness when changing the velocity curve and we clearly note the differences on every curve.

IMHO the solution is simply for Korg to correct the calibration of the existing velocity curves.

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:34 pm

Just to add my few cents:

I can't remember that I ever had a keyboard (the oldest one was a DX7-I) that really was able to output the full range of midi velocities - apart from my beloved Doepfer, where you can dig deep and perform a documented manual calibration (which requires manual setting of reference voltages in the EEPROM, but is possible).

The optimum situation would clearly be that the hardest-ever keystroke during insanely excited playing would produce 127.
As said above, this usually requires careful calibration - no matter what keybed you have - and will have to be re-done from time to time due to wear.

The second best solution would be the implementation of some (semi-)automated calibration routine (like on the Kronos for Aftertouch, e.g.)

The next best solution is that the full range of mechanical action is resolved by a sufficent number of velocity values. If it's 120 or 127 doesn't matter - this can be accounted for by programming / scaling inside the actual tone generator.
This way, not the achievable dynamic range is limited, but only the resolution of this range.

The worst solution (IMHO) is to provide all 127 values, but reaching the limit already with a keystroke (let's say f - ff) which is not yet a reasonable maximum in a performance (say fff). Because this way, you have a great resolution, but only a reduced dynamic range. THIS really affects the performance.

In summary, if a perfect calibration at assembly is not economically feasible, and a manual or automatic calibration by the user is not intended, then I'm glad that they cut the value range rather than the mechanical range.

Of course, solutions 1 and 2 were even better, but having a keybed cutting off a few percent of possible midi values is better than a keybed with reduced dynamic range.

BTW: I don't find the link right now, but AFAIR in the original MIDI standard the velocity range specified only up to 120 - the range 121-127 was reserved for special purposes - not sure, which. At least, this coincides with the fact that the vast majority of well-known keybeds seem to output a max of about 120, if you ask google (and agrees with my experience).

Ten2One · Post by **Ten2One** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:42 pm

.Jens,

I appreciate your insight and input.

I also had a DX-7 (one of the first in Oklahoma - waited for months for it to come in). I also had a Roland D-50 and it transmitted up to 127 without any problems. My experience for the past 10 years was with a Kurzweil PC2X and I could program drums or special effects and reach 127 while having great dynamics for the triple strike piano. It never needed adjustment, it just worked. It is no where near the machine the Kronos is.

BTW,

When I called Korg USA they said I needed to take my K in to the service center because not being able to reach full 127 was abnormal. On my board I have to really pound it out to reach 115.

At this point I'm just trying to get people who have the issue to contact Korg and hopefully they will provide a solution.

All this is making my head hurt and sometimes my fingers and wrists.

Ten2One

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:31 pm

Ten2One wrote: I also had a Roland D-50 and it transmitted up to 127 without any problems.

If so, then you had lots of overhead - striking the key even harder than necessary to reach 127 would not make any difference. In my opinion this is a real lack of dynamics.
It's a matter of taste, maybe, but while you can address a 0-120 velocity output just by tweaking your sound engine parameters, you'll never get by and expand the usable dynamic range if your keyboard maxes out at 127 too early (which I'd assume when you say "without any problems").

My experience for the past 10 years was with a Kurzweil PC2X and I could program drums or special effects

Thta should be also possible with a slightly reduced value range. e.g. the Orchestra & Timpani on the Kronos work fine, even if the range is a few percent lower. Just change the velocity split points for the timpani, if it feels too hard to reach those...

It is no where near the machine the Kronos is.

Naa, we are talking of 5% reduction in the resolution

That's not that much. To me, it's way more disturbing, when I'm playing excited and feel there is a brick wall in the dynamics, no matter how hard I hit the keys.

Finally, let's hope that Korg offers a possibility to calibrate the velocity translation in a future update. This way, everyone can adjust it to his taste.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:53 pm

I'm not defending either way, but from a technical(engineering) point of view:

It's like the speedometer in a car. I'm fed up of people comparing synths to cars, but this example works..

You would probably never reach the top 5% of the speedo. I fact, most cars won't even reach that speed, some only on paper, for others it is just an arbitrary round value.

It would be better to know how fast you are going up to and slightly beyond the maximum of the capabilities than it would to reach a point where you no longer know. The 2nd may sound more exciting but it a useless and ultimately disappointing scenario. You can't brag bout how fast you went, because you don't know

As others say here, you don't want to be hitting that 'brick wall'. I'd like the keys to cover the full range of playing expression. If you lose the top 2 or 3 values it's no big loss. PROVIDED that there is nothing special programmed to happen at those top 2 or 3 values, there shouldn't be, because chances are no-one will hit it. Otherwise it is a perfectly efficient use of resolution.

Where this falls down is if switching thresholds are set too high, or if we are losing a significant number of levels (10 or 20?) that I would consider inefficient and unacceptable. There should be a user adjustable scale for that probably, but many should be happy with the default levels too.

But losing too much by maxing out too easily should be avoided too. That is a far worse inefficiency in the use of resolution.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:55 pm

Also, remember that this is not a technical support or bug reports forum. It is a user discussion forum.

The best way to make korg aware of problems and to get support, is by contacting your national KORG distributor.

Whilst Korg staff to sometimes browse these forums, it is no obligation, and we are privileged to have them here.

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:35 am

I've been testing with the Kurzweil which indeed has a nice MIDI event realtime view (showing velocity at note on and even velocity at note off). By changing the Velocity Maps (velocity curves) I confirmed that with a "Piano Touch" map I can get from 1 to 127 and with "Hard 3" I can get up to 120

The keybed is lighter than the RH3 on the Kronos (Fatar TP40L) but I think this one is better calibrated because we can reach the whole velocity range and the response indeed changes with different Velocity Maps.

With the Kronos, there are also differences depending on the selected velocity curve, but there are issues with the calibration because l think we should be able to reach 127 (not up to 117) with velocity curve 9 which is supposed to be specially designed for RH3 keybed.

Ten2One · Post by **Ten2One** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:59 am

MarPabl,

If you use the Kurzweil as the master and play the Kronos from it can you hear any difference between notes played at 110 and those played at 120-127?

If the Kronos is maxed out at 110-115 i.e. brick wall, that may be the nature of the beast, but if it can respond to higher velocities then it seems a re- calibration would resolve this issue.

Ten2One

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:02 pm

Well regarding the velocity, I can get full 127 levels by using Kurzweil. It's easier to correctly play the Combi "Orchesta and Timpani" (found in the artist) and to actually get the Timpani to play.