Bug free Keyboards...

[Bachus]

On another forum i had a huge discussion about this topic, and the fact that as soon as people discover a bug in a new keyboard they start whining like little babies...


How fair is it to expect bug free firmware on highly advanced keyboards? The internalls of current days non-analogue keyboards are software based. If microsoft releases a new software it has millions of testers all over the world, and still there are bugs in releases. Now keyboard hardware manufactorers only have internal testing with a few available units... So how much chance is there you will buy a newly released keyboard witouth bugs?

I dont think its opportune to expect a newly released key to be bugfree, and thats why i advised people that rely on a keyboard for more then fun, not to becoem early adapters, because the early adapters are nothing more then beta testers on which the company relies to find the bugs..

Now i come from an IT background, and i have quite some experience with supporting software releases in our company... And this has learned me to vallue other things in companies when they release new products... I base my opinion on how a company communicates with the users, how quickly it adresses user found problems(as well as wishes) and how the support in general is...


Somehow, i hope that one day people will understand that its near impossible to release a bug free product at current prices .... Sure, i could get more internal testers, but this would raise cost and so prices of the instruments considerably... Imagine if Korg (or any other company) would have to send a few hundred units to testers so they could make their products bug free? That might push the Kronos replacement to a price level as seen from the Oasys..


Maybe its me, but i felt like nobody even understands why we see all these bugs in todays newly released keyboards ( and other electronics hardware, as all hardware these days is software driven). Its just because inhouse testing is hugely expensive and they can not outsource testing to beta testers because none of them has the hardware requirements to assist in testing..


So how do you make people aware of this?

[michelkeijzers]

Bug free software is indeed almost impossible, due to cost reasons as you say. However, there is another major reason why testing is not done until all bugs are found: time to market. In the last decade it gets more and more important to stay ahead of the competition, and testing takes a lot of time.

Also, even if a synthesizer is bug free, due to continuous software upgrades, every time there will be chances for new bugs (regression testing helps a lot of course).

Some examples from my own experience:
- In my professional work (not PCG Tools), testing takes about 50% of the complete project on average, documentation 30% and developing around 20%. It differs from project to project, but testing is mostly taking a lot of time. Test code can be even bigger than the actual implementation of the features.

- In PCG Tools, I have some test cases, but it's far from complete and I'm sure there are lots of bugs in PCG Tools. However, it is still usable, and if users (or myself) find a bug, I will try to fix it within the next release. However, I don't have multiple releases, I don't have like fix-within-a-day or week policy, simply because I don't have time for that. If I would create very good tests, I'm sure PCG Tools would have only half of the features it has now.

However, Korg (and any other company) has paid customers and the demand some quality (software wise). So I'm sure the testing will be somewhere equal to the projects I do professionaly.

[EvilDragon]

Bugs will always exists, and they DID always exist, even on older synthesizers from 80s, even on analog synths (the infamous ARP 2600 wrong capacitor in the filter bug!).

What did people do when there was no Internet? THEY MADE MUSIC AND DIDN'T CARE ABOUT BUGS!

[Jan1]

I agree with you Bachus, although referring to the complaints as 'whining' is not the most tactical way to deal with the issue and it only antagonizes and creates hard feelings.
It's just unfamiliarity with the complexity of making an instrument in combination with the expectation of buying a perfect finished product.

While I DO expect companies to make sure their products work as advertised and that they live up to their specifications, and that any bugs are not of such a nature that you cannot use a keyboard/workstation properly when it is released, I understand all too well that there will be certain bugs because of the complexity.
As long as the company supports the product and comes up with bug fixes it should be no problem, and it should simply be a matter of reporting the bug and working on an update which fixes the bug.
Even the first workstations had bugs, and they are relatively simple compared to today's do-it-all descendents.

It is also important to distinguish between bugs and feature requests since all too often they get mixed up.
If a company honors a feature request, it is a favor and a gesture of goodwill, not an obligation.
If a company ignores important bugs, then there's a problem and a reason to complain.
And sometimes bugs can turn into a feature.

All in all I think it's important to realize that reputable companies like KORG, Yamaha, Roland and many others are not out to bamboozle their customers, because, besides the ethical ideal of these companies which keeps them from such behavior, it would be tantamount to commercial suicide, so have faith and patience, even a little.

[Bachus]

I agree with you Bachus, although referring to the complaints as 'whining' is not the most tactical way to deal with the issue and it only antagonizes and creates hard feelings.
It's just unfamiliarity with the complexity of making an instrument in combination with the expectation of buying a perfect finished product.

Well, in this case it was whining, posting the same bug in several places, with MAYOR !!!!!! after he gor a reply by Mike Martin on the official facebook page 5 minutes after posting there, saying that they missed that bug in the last patch and they would put everything to work to get it out as soon as possible..

What else then such a reply would one want when posting this bug? and then despite the fact that this answer was available in the topic, people kept on complaining and making things look like the whole instrument was a fail or worse... all because of single issue in the instrument they praised so hugely the day before.. I was not upset about the fact that they posted about the bug, but that the same issue surfaced on several forums at the same time, after the official response landed... People just dont realise how much these kind of posts hurt a company...

Sure it is important to discuss unresolved bugs, or missing features in a product... but it should happen in all fairness and probably witouth any emotions tagged to it. We all know the danger of such posts on the web, we still have people inquiring about the bad keybed of the Kronos 4 years after it got resolved...

[GregC]

I agree with you Bachus, although referring to the complaints as 'whining' is not the most tactical way to deal with the issue and it only antagonizes and creates hard feelings.
It's just unfamiliarity with the complexity of making an instrument in combination with the expectation of buying a perfect finished product.

Well, in this case it was whining, posting the same bug in several places, with MAYOR !!!!!! after he gor a reply by Mike Martin on the official facebook page 5 minutes after posting there, saying that they missed that bug in the last patch and they would put everything to work to get it out as soon as possible..

What else then such a reply would one want when posting this bug? and then despite the fact that this answer was available in the topic, people kept on complaining and making things look like the whole instrument was a fail or worse... all because of single issue in the instrument they praised so hugely the day before.. I was not upset about the fact that they posted about the bug, but that the same issue surfaced on several forums at the same time, after the official response landed... People just dont realise how much these kind of posts hurt a company...

Sure it is important to discuss unresolved bugs, or missing features in a product... but it should happen in all fairness and probably witouth any emotions tagged to it. We all know the danger of such posts on the web, we still have people inquiring about the bad keybed of the Kronos 4 years after it got resolved...

this sounds like WhineBook. Oops , Facebook.

[Jan1]

I agree with you Bachus, although referring to the complaints as 'whining' is not the most tactical way to deal with the issue and it only antagonizes and creates hard feelings.
It's just unfamiliarity with the complexity of making an instrument in combination with the expectation of buying a perfect finished product.

Well, in this case it was whining, posting the same bug in several places, with MAYOR !!!!!! after he gor a reply by Mike Martin on the official facebook page 5 minutes after posting there, saying that they missed that bug in the last patch and they would put everything to work to get it out as soon as possible..

What else then such a reply would one want when posting this bug? and then despite the fact that this answer was available in the topic, people kept on complaining and making things look like the whole instrument was a fail or worse... all because of single issue in the instrument they praised so hugely the day before.. I was not upset about the fact that they posted about the bug, but that the same issue surfaced on several forums at the same time, after the official response landed... People just dont realise how much these kind of posts hurt a company...

Yeah alright, that makes it different.

As I wrote previously, those companies (KORG, Casio etc) do not have the objective to cheat their customers, quite the contrary, looking just at Casio alone you will see a company trying to build up a good, solid representation in the synth/piano/keyboard industry.
They know how important a good and reliable reputation is, and it can't hurt for the complainers to let that thought sink in for a moment.

I don't know what drives people to do that, the need for a black sheep?
Roland was put in that position for many years, yet if you look at the large catalogue of wide ranging instruments you would have to be completely blind not to see some of the jewels they made in the past. If the company would have gone bankrupt after the bad years the loss would be ours as much as theirs.
We are operating in a very small industry, and it is good to realize that the companies which provide us with our wonderful creative tools are not making huge profits, and they are vulnerable.
Treat others the way you want to be treated, and put yourself in their shoes.

[Bertotti]

Getting a jump on the competition is not isolated to the keyboard industry or even music industry. I used to be a medical tech, repairing and installing bloods and CoOximetry equipment and that company as did the other in that industry had a rule, 80% there and first to market. Naturally they would do better as long as it was in the release timeline but if they were atet e deadline and it was 80% functional with good test results provided then the extra features would be handled with kits and updates. I can see how bean counters would push this but never did buy into the idea myself. In the case of our instruments and gear I would almost bet that these items worked well before release but it is just way to difficult to simulate every possible thing a user will do before release.

[iowagold]

thoughts from an it guy.
I guess what I experienced in the last 40 years of programming is if the soft ware is just for one unit. no extras no changes no custom stuff.
98% of the time it is ok...
now you add in the internet, other software, that's were the issues come in..

I have yet to see a real bug free pc or mac that is connected to the internet...

on the flip side a piece of gear that had hard software with no way to connect to the internet.. I have seen some that work for years on end...

so if korg goes back to chip updates in snail mail that is developed on computers that are not on any net work... maybe we can get back to the 98% good....

internet is a good way to share the good and bad....
do not get me wrong, I have made excellent connections on the net..
priceless ones!!
I just miss the old bbs systems that were closed to outside users some day's..
now as far as music... artists would make more cash with out youtube.
or free music downloads...
but then again
I would have never seen some concerts, or connect direct with other artists
the way I did just today...
who would to have thought back in 1975 that we could just type on a small 3 lb or less laptop and talk around the world in print??
and trade licks with some one almost live (mseconds delay)
pretty cool times indeed!!
if we can keep from blowing each other up
the next 20 years will be cool to see!!
you can quote me on that one!!

[Mr_SamDoogie]

Well it might seem as complaints but its actually an conversation, I have several Casio instruments it wasn't sure if their would be firmware updates but they did pushed them forward thanks to Mike Martin.

Has been with XW the PX series and what not eventually the beauty of it was the community made it happen I mean its the instrument you work with at some point it does what it has to and then ok right.

Off course there are some updates that do something you wish they shouldn't have pulled out but that the limitation of the current instrument.

I'm glad that the engineers take their time for that and not turn their backs for the next project. If they didn't there wouldn't be a market to venture even the next keyboard.

[iowagold]

how true...
tech changes by the hour...
most of the gear is outdated before it is out the door...
but then again... if they made one unit that was update able by swapping out a chip or chip hard drive...
and just have the keybeds as the standard...
hummmm that is a thought.
but that looks like my system here, lots of sound modules a hand full of controllers....
trends change.... right now classic sounds are still hot.....
if we had computers fast enough to run the soft synths all at the same time for the big stacked sound with out crashing... then there is the next big thing....

[Bachus]

how true...
tech changes by the hour...
most of the gear is outdated before it is out the door...
but then again... if they made one unit that was update able by swapping out a chip or chip hard drive...
and just have the keybeds as the standard...
hummmm that is a thought.
but that looks like my system here, lots of sound modules a hand full of controllers....
trends change.... right now classic sounds are still hot.....
if we had computers fast enough to run the soft synths all at the same time for the big stacked sound with out crashing... then there is the next big thing....

Thats what Wersi Organs have been doing for the last 15 years....

Upgradable hardware like a computer and able to run several softsynths...

[dimitris]

"Bug" free instruments are only those that does not include electronic circuits!

[worth]

My friend Bacchus is being a little disingenuous with this post. I am a member of the other forum that he visits where this discussion came about after someone had purchased a keyboard and it failed to work as advertised. the truth of the conversation on the other website regarding bugs in hardware keyboards is not as has been reflected here.

The specific issue concerns the new Casio arranger keyboard whereby someone who purchased the keyboard as an arranger workstation and who had endorsed the product wholeheartedly after just a few hours of owning it ,suddenly discovered he was unable able to save any edits that he made to styles within the arranger to customise the board to himself. That meant that after he had spent hours editing styles and customising them and changing the effects and changing the volumes and changing the actual instruments and saving them, after all this work was done, nothingwas saved and everything reverted back to the default factory settings. This in effect meant that the workstation element of the arranger keyboard was dead in the water from day one. This was an obvious bug that should never have left the factory as it basically cripples the arranger keyboard for a huge number of users that customise their own styles and use use it for their own compositions .

No one has argued on the other forum that I belong to that keyboards as technically complex as these will be put out completely bug free. But in this instance the bug was particularly significant and after having shelled out over $1000 for this instrument, it is not unreasonable for purchaser to expect it's main features to work correctly. I don't know any workstation users that would be happy that the workstation couldn't save their work! . That might be a minor issue to Bacchus but for the people who actually are creative with their instrument, this is a serious Issue And as yet is still on resolved . It certainly is not whining !

I have posted this simply to add a little perspective on what the issue that Bacchus has brought here is really about and I'm not quite sure why he has represented a discussion on another form here in this manner .

By the way I don't have any dog in this fight. I don't own a Casio keyboard and never will and I'm a proud owner of the Korg PA1X arranger. I just don't like situations where another forum members genuine complaintof is being misrepresented here .

[Happy Jack]

My friend Bacchus is being a little disingenuous with this post. I am a member of the other forum that he visits where this discussion came about after someone had purchased a keyboard and it failed to work as advertised. the truth of the conversation on the other website regarding bugs in hardware keyboards is not as has been reflected here.

The specific issue concerns the new Casio arranger keyboard whereby someone who purchased the keyboard as an arranger workstation and who had endorsed the product wholeheartedly after just a few hours of owning it ,suddenly discovered he was unable able to save any edits that he made to styles within the arranger to customise the board to himself. That meant that after he had spent hours editing styles and customising them and changing the effects and changing the volumes and changing the actual instruments and saving them, after all this work was done, nothingwas saved and everything reverted back to the default factory settings. This in effect meant that the workstation element of the arranger keyboard was dead in the water from day one. This was an obvious bug that should never have left the factory as it basically cripples the arranger keyboard for a huge number of users that customise their own styles and use use it for their own compositions .

No one has argued on the other forum that I belong to that keyboards as technically complex as these will be put out completely bug free. But in this instance the bug was particularly significant and after having shelled out over $1000 for this instrument, it is not unreasonable for purchaser to expect it's main features to work correctly. I don't know any workstation users that would be happy that the workstation couldn't save their work! . That might be a minor issue to Bacchus but for the people who actually are creative with their instrument, this is a serious Issue And as yet is still on resolved . It certainly is not whining !

I have posted this simply to add a little perspective on what the issue that Bacchus has brought here is really about and I'm not quite sure why he has represented a discussion on another form here in this manner .

By the way I don't have any dog in this fight. I don't own a Casio keyboard and never will and I'm a proud owner of the Korg PA1X arranger. I just don't like situations where another forum members genuine complaintof is being misrepresented here .

Seems like a major bug to me. Don't know about 'whining' but am sure not buying this keyboard, either, not until I see the fix.

No point in trumpeting its capability to import Yamaha styles if you can't save your work?