SST or 2 keyboards?

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:28 pm

Now SST is available on the Kronos, I have thought about using 1 keyboard and change all the combis (1 or 2 per song) using 2 keyboards to combis using 1 keyboard.

However, we have quite some songs where in the chorus I play piano (2 hands using 5 octaves) and in the verse both piano/organ or vice versa.

So if I would need to program a song that has 3 choruses and verses I would need about 6 combis, one for each 'change', since there is no possibility to go up/down (except when using keys, not by using 2 foot switches by CC messages).

Is here anyone who recognizes this problem (and has a solution)?

I know there is a MIDI pedal device that can go up or down but I don't want another MIDI device on the ground (since I already use a Behringer).

BillW · Post by **BillW** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:50 pm

I have songs that use as many as 12 combis...some of them repeat. What's wrong with just putting them in order and walking through them? Why would you need to go backwards? There is plenty of combi real estate in the Kronos.

PinkFloydDudi · Post by **PinkFloydDudi** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:01 pm

1) Use the touchscreen? I've found in most songs I play I can find a half a second to press the next patch when needed.

2) Does your behringer allow for the up/down functionality?

3) What BillW said...yes you may need 6 slots for 1 song, but there are TONS of slots...use em!

jeebustrain · Post by **jeebustrain** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:05 pm

Jordan Rudess does exactly this and has done it for a long time (single keyboard). He puts all of his Combis (yes, a lot repeat) in order for each song, and then steps through each of them with a pedal that does a Program Change +.

He did this with Combis on the Oasys (and Setups on the Kurzweil boards before that) and did fine, even without SST. Now with SST and the Set List feature (ability to combine programs, combis, and sequences, all with the ability to set up performance notes on top), there's really no reason not to do it.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:08 pm

PinkFloydDudi wrote:1) Use the touchscreen? I've found in most songs I play I can find a half a second to press the next patch when needed.

2) Does your behringer allow for the up/down functionality?

3) What BillW said...yes you may need 6 slots for 1 song, but there are TONS of slots...use em!

1. Between a verse and chorus I mostly don't have half a second, it should be continuously.

2. The up/down is more a problem of Korg, which does not support up/down (you can only select up/down by the foot switch for example). There are no different CC messages for up/down, or CC XX 00 for down and CCXX 01 for up for example.

3. Of course I can copy slots, but this costs quite some copying work and maintenance if there needs to be changed something. On the other hand, set list slots can refer to the same combi so that would make it not that bad after all.

Jon Lord · Post by **Jon Lord** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:08 pm

What about "Data dec/inc" CC96 & 97 (see Param Guide page 1103)? But I guess this only works if you have a sound "focused/selected" on setlist to be able to up and down with that

I guess the problem why it's not implemented is that the current Midi standard sucks... to say it mildly... 127 CC "channels" is not enough. But IMO this is a important feature to implement, some other CC message needs to be sacrified

JPWC · Post by **JPWC** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:10 pm

Please hold on to your hat....................

Change the song arrangement to meet the needs of your live perfomance.

I've been in many bands, where the simple rule was, if we can not perform it live, it doesn't count.

Write songs to give yourself time to perform them, and remember program changes, pushing buttons and goofing around with other various controls is part of the live performance.

Of course this is easy for me to say, I am not the one with the issue

Good Luck

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:20 pm

Jon Lord wrote:What about "Data dec/inc" CC96 & 97 (see Param Guide page 1103)? But I guess this only works if you have a sound "focused/selected" on setlist to be able to up and down with that
I guess the problem why it's not implemented is that the current Midi standard sucks... to say it mildly... 127 CC "channels" is not enough. But IMO this is a important feature to implement, some other CC message needs to be sacrified

Oops, almost forget about it ... I will check this out because it might work, I don't mind setting the cursor to it. I thought there were quite some CCs free/available.

I will try it when I have my Behringer at home (it's normally in the rehearsal room).

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:23 pm

JPWC wrote:Please hold on to your hat....................

Change the song arrangement to meet the needs of your live perfomance.

I've been in many bands, where the simple rule was, if we can not perform it live, it doesn't count.

Write songs to give yourself time to perform them, and remember program changes, pushing buttons and goofing around with other various controls is part of the live performance.

Of course this is easy for me to say, I am not the one with the issue

Good Luck

I always play everything live, never used a sequencer (only one time an arpeggiator of a sounds that was triggered like 100 times a second ... bit exaggerated).

And yes, if I have to add complicated sequence of combis to ' implement' a song and remember it, it might be worthwhile just to use 2 synths (it also will make it possible to change playing on the fly, play additional parts or testing out while in the rehearsing room).

Guess I have to try it out for some songs how well it goes.

Jon Lord · Post by **Jon Lord** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:25 pm

JPWC wrote:Please hold on to your hat....................

Change the song arrangement to meet the needs of your live perfomance.

I've been in many bands, where the simple rule was, if we can not perform it live, it doesn't count.

Write songs to give yourself time to perform them, and remember program changes, pushing buttons and goofing around with other various controls is part of the live performance.

Of course this is easy for me to say, I am not the one with the issue

Good Luck

Setlist offers 16384 slots of sounds, which should be enough for most mortals. So having some clones of same sound does not matter, and since they are just "links" to the actual combis so you can just wipe out a setlist easily and start from scratch and not being afraid to loose any patches like before when you just ordered patch after patch after patch the regular way which is a real hassle trust me.
So to answer the topic question: SST

But when I'm playing solo/experimenting/w/e, a up/down function would be a useful but for live use It's just easier to use setlist with SST

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:28 pm

Jon Lord wrote:
JPWC wrote:Please hold on to your hat....................

Change the song arrangement to meet the needs of your live perfomance.

I've been in many bands, where the simple rule was, if we can not perform it live, it doesn't count.

Write songs to give yourself time to perform them, and remember program changes, pushing buttons and goofing around with other various controls is part of the live performance.

Of course this is easy for me to say, I am not the one with the issue

Good Luck
Setlist offers 16384 slots of sounds, which should be enough for most mortals. So having some clones of same sound does not matter, and since they are just "links" to the actual combis so you can just wipe out a setlist easily and start from scratch and not being afraid to loose any patches like before when you just ordered patch after patch after patch the regular way which is a real hassle trust me.
So to answer the topic question: SST

But when I'm playing solo/experimenting/w/e, a up/down function would be a useful but for live use It's just easier to use setlist with SST

Yes I know 16384 is enough, I probably only need 3 set lists

And since it are references, also improving a combi means automatically used by all referenced set list slots.

I think I'm going to try to program some songs we play into combis/set list slots and see how easy it goes by switching (preferably by MIDI CC).

Dniss · Post by **Dniss** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:17 pm

I agree with everyone here.

After giving this issue (up/down) much thoughts, it's easier to go forward in the setlist (and repeating the same combis) then figuring out on the fly if you have to press up or down. One less thing to worry about, one less switch to press.

Not only that, what if after going down one slot, the next sound you need isn't the one you just used before pressing down switch?

Just my 2 cents.

You could check the Midi Mouse that appears to do the up/down job pretty well.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:16 pm

Dniss wrote:I agree with everyone here.

After giving this issue (up/down) much thoughts, it's easier to go forward in the setlist (and repeating the same combis) then figuring out on the fly if you have to press up or down. One less thing to worry about, one less switch to press.

Not only that, what if after going down one slot, the next sound you need isn't the one you just used before pressing down switch?

Just my 2 cents.

You could check the Midi Mouse that appears to do the up/down job pretty well.

I have checked the MIDI mouse (at least that is the pedal right?), but I already have a big foot pedal so I don't want another next to it (would barely fit).

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:33 pm

I would liek to ask a simple question that is driving me nuts! What is sst? I'm not kidding I don't know!

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:52 pm

Bertotti wrote:I would liek to ask a simple question that is driving me nuts! What is sst? I'm not kidding I don't know!

SST Means Smooth Sound Transition and it means that you can go from one program/combi/set list slot to another without the previous sound stopping.

According to the official krog site:
Smooth Sound Transition: this often-requested feature allows held or sustained notes to keep sounding when changing sounds or modes.