How do you sort timbres in a combi?

[michelkeijzers]

I play in a band using two keyboards, MIDIing them using only sounds from the Kronos (MIDI channel 1 from Kronos keyboard, MIDI channel 2 from the other keyboard).

When I make a combi, I mostly place all timbres assigned to MIDI channel 1 left, then have a gap and timbres for MIDI channel 2 after the gap.

However, I also leave a gap between slits, e.g. the timbres (T) will be:
- T1: Piano on MIDI channel 1, C-1 to B-4
- T2: Gap (empty)
- T3: Synth on MIDI channel 1, C-5 - G-9
- T4: Gap
- T5: Strings on MIDI channel 2, C-1 to G-9

The gaps are timbres set to volume 0, mute on, set to OFF etc.
I also use for those empty timbres a sample that is not loaded, so you get red icons in those timbres so you can in a lot of editing screens immediately see they are not used.

I want to create a function in PCG Tools to automate this sorting/cleaning.

I'm interested to know what you use as sorting/cleaning method for timbres in a combi (or song), so I could add good ideas into PCG Tools.

[cynkh]

I would say sorting by category may be useful. I tend to keep percussion on channel 10, for example, to keep it compatible with my studio/sequencing setup (and so I don't have to touch the settings in my MPC ). Maybe another idea would be to have the program auto-calculate the number of gaps dynamically based on the number of programs in use in the combi, so if you're only using 2 timbres there would be a gap of 7, for example.

Cheers!

[Bald Eagle]

I tend to group the timbres by their function somewhat like you do but space it out differently, kind of like center justifying an MS-Word document. For example, local timbers that will use karma on the left beginning with T1 and going up, local timbres playing live in the center and working out in both directions and exernal timbres on the right starting at T16 and working down.

[SanderXpander]

Why is it useful to have a gap? Am I missing something obvious?

[Bald Eagle]

Why is it useful to have a gap? Am I missing something obvious?

For me a gap is useful becuase of the way I tend to group the timbres. If there are no gaps and you want to insert a timbre into a group then you have to move everything around. It's not like its that hard to keep track of things with only 16 timbres but it's convenient (or maybe it's OCD).

[SanderXpander]

Why would you have to move everything around? Not that I usually insert more timbres into existing combis anyway. Just to keep the left to right logic?

[michelkeijzers]

I would say sorting by category may be useful. I tend to keep percussion on channel 10, for example, to keep it compatible with my studio/sequencing setup (and so I don't have to touch the settings in my MPC ). Maybe another idea would be to have the program auto-calculate the number of gaps dynamically based on the number of programs in use in the combi, so if you're only using 2 timbres there would be a gap of 7, for example.

Cheers!

I already thought about making a check box for keeping channel 10 in place, but the dynamic gap sounds like a good idea. It would be useful to later easily add more timbres.

[michelkeijzers]

I tend to group the timbres by their function somewhat like you do but space it out differently, kind of like center justifying an MS-Word document. For example, local timbers that will use karma on the left beginning with T1 and going up, local timbres playing live in the center and working out in both directions and exernal timbres on the right starting at T16 and working down.

Nice idea but the problem is I cannot check the function of a timbre because it is not a parameter. I could put the EXT sounds right (though I do not use them myself anyway).

[michelkeijzers]

Why would you have to move everything around? Not that I usually insert more timbres into existing combis anyway. Just to keep the left to right logic?

I regularly end up using an existing combi and add new sounds for MIDI channel 2. Or remove some of the timbres because I disable Karma and do not use them anyway.

The advantage of gaps is that you can see immediately what the 'layout' of a combi is: which programs are for MIDI channel 1 and 2 for example. And low or top of the keyboard. Otherwise you have to go to the different screens to check it out every time.

Also when a gap uses illogical values for parameters you can see in almost any window that the timbre is not used at all. And when you copy a timbre from a program it will automatically get overwritten to the correct values.

[jeebustrain]

there's not a lot of rhyme or reason to what I do with a combi, I usually just start tossing sounds in. Although if I have something that I need to control via an external controller (say, the Axiom connected via USB). I'll set that to channel 16 and put it on the far right. If I need to layer/split multiple programs for the axiom, I'll just start working my way left.

[michelkeijzers]

there's not a lot of rhyme or reason to what I do with a combi, I usually just start tossing sounds in. Although if I have something that I need to control via an external controller (say, the Axiom connected via USB). I'll set that to channel 16 and put it on the far right. If I need to layer/split multiple programs for the axiom, I'll just start working my way left.

Well I see two 'votes' now for putting external sounds from right to left. I think I will make an option to do this, which sounds reasonable.

I also make a Filter function. So far it will be:

<b>Filter function</b>
- Select First MIDI Channel: 1-16
- Select Last MIDI Channel: 1-16
- Keep Timbre #10 if Drums: Yes/No
- Keep External timbres: Yes/No

<b>Sort function</b>
- Sort by Status, Mute, Category, MIDI Channel, Key Zone, Vel Zone (radiobox)
- Sort by Status, Mute, MIDI Channel, Key Zone, Vel Zone, Category (radiobox)

- Number of gaps between MIDI channels: 0, 1, 2, Dynamic
- Number of gaps between Key zones: 0, 1, 2, Dynamic
- Try to keep timbres within the first 8: yes/no
- Keep Drums on Timbre #10: Yes/No
- Move Ext timbres from right to left

[Bald Eagle]

Playing with the key zones and sorting by them would probably get me the grouping that I often use so I like that if that was the first sort key.

So for sorting how about making it more dynamic using dropdowns ...

Sort Group 1: [ drop down of choices ] * Asc * Desc
Sort Group 2: [ drop down of choices ] * Asc * Desc
Sort Group n: [ drop down of choices ] * Asc * Desc

* Asc * Desc would be radio buttons.

Also include Category+Sub Category as one of the choices.

[michelkeijzers]

Playing with the key zones and sorting by them would probably get me the grouping that I often use so I like that if that was the first sort key.

So for sorting how about making it more dynamic using dropdowns ...

Sort Group 1: [ drop down of choices ] * Asc * Desc
Sort Group 2: [ drop down of choices ] * Asc * Desc
Sort Group n: [ drop down of choices ] * Asc * Desc

* Asc * Desc would be radio buttons.

Also include Category+Sub Category as one of the choices.

Of course that would be nice, but there are now already 6 sort keys (fixed), and with both asc/desc I would need 128 possibilities. Also, I guess you don't want key being a higher group than e.g. MIDI channel.

I'm not sure if I want to spend a month (of free hours) spending on this feature. If it will not land in the implementation, of course I will add it to the wish list so the good idea will not be lost.

[SanderXpander]

The only useful sorting for me would also be by keyzone, but that gets complicated quickly cause there can be fades and overlap. Plus if you then have gaps in it half the time it gets really confusing which fader to use.

[michelkeijzers]

The only useful sorting for me would also be by keyzone, but that gets complicated quickly cause there can be fades and overlap. Plus if you then have gaps in it half the time it gets really confusing which fader to use.

I will make sorting by keyzone anyway since I want that for myself. And if you set the gap between key zones to 0, you will not get gaps between key zones.